Instruction Books for Large Format

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I can't believe that this hasn't been discussed many times already but couldn't find anything. Feel free to direct me to the right place if it has, I certainly will not be offended. I know one of us (MTGSeattle) is trying to learn large format right now and I am following his thread as well. I do suspect he is a bit ahead of me at this point as I am nowhere near an "intermediate" photographer.

I have already dabbled a bit with large format and own some equipment. However I am a lonnnnggg way from competent with any of the tools I already own. As I will have some time to study things a bit deeper this winter I thought I would like to start with some good books to get me started off on the right foot...and then keep me moving forward correctly.

I already own Steve Simmons' "Using the View Camera" and have pulled it out to start with that one. Other suggestions will be much appreciated, even old lesson plans that others may already have used in teaching or learning these basics themselves. For me focusing the View Camera and properly using movements has always been a bit of a challenge so suggestions in that area would definitely be appreciated.

I know books are only a start and hands on learning is also important. Unfortunately my finances are limited at this point so, out of necessity, most of what I do in the beginning will be confined to my home and my immediate area. But that does not preclude the possibility of individual critiques if any of you are interested in providing that type of assistance.

Finally, but actually less important, equipment suggestions would also be appreciated. I am most interested in learning with 8x10 but will be most interested in your suggestions in this area. My experience with 35mm and medium format suggests that starting and staying with one type of camera and lens is the most efficient way to learn so this is what I am inclined to do.

But being a real newbie to this field I definitely rely on those with much more experience than I, and I know they exist on this forum.

Thanks in advance for any help or suggestions you may have. Let me know what you think. I am certainly open to any suggestions and ideas since this is all new to me.
 

GregY

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People will tell you to go ahead and start with 8x10....but with the cost of 8x10 film, you are financially better off starting with 4x5. I'd suggest buy just one lens and go to it. It's lighter, smaller and easier to work with.
 

Alan Edward Klein

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Pioneer

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GregY said:
People will tell you to go ahead and start with 8x10....but with the cost of 8x10 film, you are financially better off starting with 4x5. I'd suggest buy just one lens and go to it. It's lighter, smaller and easier to work with.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I had that thought as well. There are certainly advantages to starting with 4x5 other than just the cost of film. The size and availability of equipment is one. But that argument can also be used to justify using medium format film. Hasselblads and Rolleiflexes can be used to take amazing pictures.

But I would expect that there are also advantages to starting with the format you want to use over the long term. Again size itself comes into play. Using a much larger camera in the field from the very start has to have value while you are learning how things work and which methods work best. Plus, I'm not sure how many large format cameras I want to buy. I already have that problem with smaller cameras. I would prefer to stay with one camera and one lens until I actually know what works for the type of photography I enjoy. If my own past experience in other areas plays out then this could take quite awhile to get competent.

I don't know but I am interested in finding out what people think. Does the cost factor outweigh the value of starting with, and staying with, the format you actually want to use?
 
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Yes. I seen that. I must have the fastest mouse finder in the west.

I'm hoping that a moderator can combine the two before it gets out of hand. I don't think I can delete the thread now.
 
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And BTW. Thanks for the suggestion regarding the Large Format Photography Forum. I will start going through what they have available as well.
 

GregY

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Dan, I used 4x5, 5x7, 8x10.... in the end i gravitated towards 5x7.( I have both a 4x5 enlarger and a terrific Durst 138 for 5x7.) Currently Ilford 8x10 is $400 for 50 sheets. 4x5 is roughly $100 for 50 sheets. Will you be happy contact printing? If not then 4x5" or 5x7" is a more economical bet. What kind of subjects are you interested in? If you buy a used 4x5 you can easily sell it and then buy an 8x10. Best of luck with your project.
Also as photographers get older or travel they seem to gravitate towards smaller cameras. I know Jay Dusard, well-known for his 8x10 work is using his Fuji 6x9. Ray Bidegain who uses 8x10 a lot recently went to Paris... with a Linhof 4x5 & a Rolleiflex.
On another note.... it took me much longer to get good results with the 8x10 than it did with the 5x7.....but that might not have been true if i were doing portraits or still life......
 
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GregY

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Another thing that crossed my mind Dan, it that large sheet film is not readily (locally) available. When I sold my 8x10 & 5x7 cameras, the value of the film stock i sold was more than the value of the cameras & they weren't cheap cameras.......
 
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wiltw

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A very good book illustrating the use of various large format camera movements for control of the perspective of a shot is View Camera Technique by Leslie Stroebel
It is an excellent overview of various aspects of view camera concepts and considerations and controls.
 

Doremus Scudder

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Dan,

There are tons of resources out there in the form of books, web pages, etc., plus the fora here and over at the LF forum.

In fact, there's so much stuff out there that I'd suggest you limit yourself to a few resources at first. Here are my suggestions.

From the Ansel Adams three-part series, get "The Camera." It's available in most libraries and, I believe, online as a download too somewhere. For completeness and clarity, it's hard to beat, even though it's a bit dated.

I'm not familiar with Steve Simmons book, but it is likely also a good resource and, since you have it, one to dig into.

I agree with the above post about the Stroebel book; I consider it one of the definitive resources on view camera movements. That said, I think it may be something you need to come to with a bit of background first. AA's "The Camera" will get you there and is more immediately approachable.

Mastering movements has a learning curve, so take it step-by-step. You'll find a lot of things on the LF home page about Scheimpflug, Merklinger, hinge points, and so on. All this theory is interesting and can be valuable, but in the field, a more practical approach is usually faster.

One hurdle in learning to use movements effectively is that the way movements, especially tilts, are applied depends on the camera you are using. There are axis tilts, base tilts and asymmetrical tilts (a variation of axis tilts), and each has its own approach, i.e., different ways of arriving at the same positioning of lens and film. What's important is to realize that the main thing is how the lens is positioned in relation to the film and how the film is positioned in relation to the subject that matters to the image; how that's accomplished is just an engineering problem.

When you move to LF, you'll find that some things are markedly different from working with smaller cameras. The big one for me when I switched was focusing. Yes, you can just rack the bellows in and out and focus on whatever you wand, but with LF, you are often more concerned with depth of field and making sure near and far objects will be acceptably sharp in the final image. If that's what you are interested in doing, I'd really recommend the focus-spread approach described in the article on the LF home page entitled, "How to select the f-stop" here: https://www.largeformatphotography.info/fstop.html .

There are a number of other articles on the LF home page as well. Digest these slowly and don't get bogged down in the math and tech-talk.

The above resources should get you more than started. Post here or over at the LF fora with questions when you run up against the inevitable obstacles and you'll get expert advice.

About which size camera to start with: If you really know for certain that you want to work with 8x10, then just start there. However, if you haven't considered portability issues, cost, weight, availability of equipment, whether you want to enlarge, contact print, scan, and so forth, then I'd suggest starting with 4x5 and going from there. FWIW, I need a lightweight, portable kit and like prints 11x14 and larger. So, for me, a lightweight 4x5 kit and enlarging was a no-brainer. I love working with 8x10 and larger cameras, but I'm not about to carry one around in the canyon country or on the rugged pacific coast or on my bicycle anytime soon . And, for me, an 8x10 contact print is still too small for all but the most intimate of subjects. My point being, consider the end product you want and the rigors of doing kind of photography you want to do when deciding on a format.

Best,

Doremus
 

grahamp

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I think the 'big three' when it comes to books on large format are:
  1. Using the View Camera, Simmons, Steve. Amphoto, 1987 ISBN 0-8174-6353-4
  2. View Camera Technique, Stroebel, Leslie. Visual Communication Books, 1973. ISBN 8038-7745-5
  3. A User’s Guide to the View Camera, Stone, Jim. Longman, 1997. ISBN 0-673-52006-4

The Stroebel book is a hardback, but there may be a soft cover version. There may be later editions, but the fundamentals of focus, movements, and film handling don't change. I think one may be available as an Amazon Kindle book.

It pays to re-read these books in the light of experience. It is not so much what one can do with a view camera, as why and when to do it.
 
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GregY said:
Another thing that crossed my mind Dan, it that large sheet film is not readily (locally) available. When I sold my 8x10 & 5x7 cameras, the value of the film stock i sold was more than the value of the cameras......
Click to expand...

Locally I wish I could find any film locally.

For me about the only film I can find locally comes in a Fuji disposable camera. I did luck out about 3 weeks ago and found a 3-pack of Fuji 400 color film at the local CVS Pharmacy for $37. I bought it hoping they would get some more in. I can still get color film developed there so I don't mind buying it from them as well. So I buy most of my supplies on-line and do the majority of my processing and printing at home.
 

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As many of us, I started large format with 4x5, with a Graflex camera and its book, easily available both. Even with the 3 basic lenses, it's affordable. It's a marvel to explore.

I tried better cameras as the reknown Linhofs, they are better, yes, but so expensive that I don't see the advantage in the end. So if you buy a Graflex, you have a good start and you can sell it anytime to get back your money.

Then I came across the Rittreck 5x7, a very small and light foldable camera, often sold with a full 4x5 equipment. You can go for 5x7 at low expenses and there are even 8x10 backs for it, but with very little movements. I bought one with 8x10 back and some film backs. So I could test 8x10 negatives and 8x10 Polaroid. It was a wonderful experience.

I don't have any large format enlarger and I will not invest the money for it. I gave the negatives to a lab. For 8x10 I was pleased with the contact prints.

So for me 4x5 is a good start. A Rittreck 5x7 with 4x5 equipment is even better seen the possibilities...
 
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Excellent suggestion. This the part of large format that intrigues me the most, but the part that seems to elude me the quickest.

I already know with what little I have done with my little Cambo 4x5 and the old Crown Graphic that this is not the same as using 35mm. That Cambo in particular can get pretty confusing when I'm trying to focus and that is what I seem to struggle with the most. Based on what I've read I should be able to tell exactly what is, and what is not, in focus on the ground glass. I should not have to guess or estimate. I know that the Crown Graphic is not built to do this, but that Cambo is supposedly built to do exactly that! But I could even see with my contact prints that I wasn't getting what I thought I was. Maybe that SK Angulon 90 isn't up to it but that certainly is not what I've been told. That lens and shutter have been serviced by Carol Flutot and are in excellent condition so I am pretty sure the problem lies with me and what I don't know is the problem here.

I was so dissatisfied with some of that 4x5 work that I tossed most of the negatives and went back to my medium format Pentax.
 
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This is all very useful information Doremus. Thank you very much for taking the time from your busy day to write up such a well considered post.

I actually do have Ansel Adams set on my shelf but never actually considered using it for this. I don't think I've actually read the entire set, only sections when I was trying to find something. In fact, since I am expecting plenty of time to do some reading this fall and winter I think I will start right there. I will pick up Stroebel's book as well since you are the second one to recommend it.

I spent a few minutes going through what is on the Large Format Photography forum as well and I suspect I'll be headed over there a little more often. As you mentioned, focusing has already proven to be my biggest headache when it comes to using large format cameras, and that is the biggest reason I want to move to large format. Using a 4x5 or 8x10 viewfinder I should be able to tell what is and what is not in focus before I ever fire the shutter. But that was not how things worked out the last time. I know it is possible because I have looked at some VERY sharp photographs, even very old ones, so somebody has mastered the technique.

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts on format size, I am still a bit conflicted in that respect. Fortunately I have some time to think on it and read a little before I intend to start actually working with any cameras. In my circumstances transportation is more by Jeep and then by foot. I have absolutely nothing against bicycles as long as I am not the one pedaling.

Although things can change over time I am more drawn toward intimate subjects that can work very well on 8x10 contact prints. Think Weston's sea shells and green peppers, though I think peaches under the right lighting have a lot more texture.

But is do like landscapes as well and my old Elwood can do a pretty good job with big enlargements when I can afford the paper, not too mention find the time to make the mess to get those enlargements developed and hung to dry. I haven't done a very large enlargement of that size for a very, very long time, so I know that will be another big (re)learning curve when I decide I'm ready to go there. But getting there requires some sharp negatives worthy of the work required to make the print, and my large format technique is most certainly not at that level.
 
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Some excellent ideas.

I have an old Crown Graphic and I have that book you refer to. It is indeed an excellent resource for Graflex equipment. I even have one of those old potato masher flash units that WeeGee is famous for using. Unfortunately that old Crown Graphic didn't have the movements I wanted. I will say though, if I could find an old Graphic View monorail I may be tempted to consider 4x5. That was the camera my high school photography teacher used, when he wasn't teaching us how to use a Minolta SRT-101. He could do some amazing things with that camera but I can't remember after all this time which lens he used.

I inherited an old Empire State 5x7 glass plate field camera from my uncle. I have never used it as I have no glass plates for the holders, but it is truly a beautiful camera to look at. Rochester Optical did know how to build some gorgeous cameras. I hadn't actually thought of that camera until you brought it up but that is probably a rabbit hole I should stay away from right now.

It is interesting that you brought up those large format polaroids. I wonder if those films are still available?
 

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@Doremus Scudder and @GregY both lent excellent replies to the op.
I have checked out the Stroebel book From a library a few times over the years. It’s definitely one of the big 3. I find Steve Simmons to be easier to digest.
All of the principals involved with view camera work are the same regardless of film size. By this I mean tilts,swings and shifts.
Obviously 4x5 is the “budget” choice for large format which makes a compelling argument for learning on 4x5.
My decision has been to rediscover and hopefully refine my photography on 8x10. I actually enrolled in a class to force myself to get out and do work, and make some prints. I was in the darkroom on Sunday for the first time since 2006. Rusty doesn’t quite describe it.
It may seem silly, but for any actual enlarging, I will shoot 4x5 on the 8x10 camera. It will keep me building familiarity and “smooth” operation with the big camera vs. using something like my speed graphic.
There’s no substitute for just getting out there.
Oh, as for right now, I feel like the Ilford direct positive paper is a much better option than any large format Polaroid stock that may be floating around.
 

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Andrew O'Neill

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I pretty much had to teach myself LF. I started with 4x5 back in '93. The only book I had was AA's, The Camera... Then there was the odd article in VC or Darkroom and Photo techniques magazines... With 4x5, I only had one lens. A 150 Nikkor. And two film holders. I used two films. HP5 and HIE. My "training" on 4x5 made the transition to 8x10 about a decade later, easier.
Get your hands on a box of xray film. Great/cheap way to learn using 8x10!
 
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I pulled a couple of boxes out from beneath the desk in the office last night and found a bit more 4x5 film than I thought I had, 3 more boxes of 100 sheets but one of them is open. Still, I already had more 4x5 film on the shelf than 8x10 and now I have quite a bit more. I also have about about 500 sheets of Efke 25 that was purchased back when they had closed down. All of it is expired but the Ilford is not by too much.

Much as I would like to start with 8x10 I think that my best move is to begin with 4x5.

I started reading The Camera last night.
 

Andrew O'Neill

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I think you should start with 4x5 now that I know that you have 500 sheets of one of my favourite film!! I just finished a box of 8x10, that I had kept refrigerated since 2009. No base fog whatsoever. I have a box of 4x5 I need to crack open!
 
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Andrew O'Neill said:
I think you should start with 4x5 now that I know that you have 500 sheets of one of my favourite film!! I just finished a box of 8x10, that I had kept refrigerated since 2009. No base fog whatsoever. I have a box of 4x5 I need to crack open!
Click to expand...

I have barely touched the 4x5 Efke I put aside back when they shut down.

I'm pretty happy, all of mine has held up really well, even the 135. Looking back over my records I see most of that Efke 25 has been used in my K1000. Its' no wonder I like that old Pentax.

I will admit I will be disappointed when it is finally gone.
 

Andrew O'Neill

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K1000 is my favourite 35mm camera!
 

SodaAnt

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I have both the Simmons book and the Stroebel book. Of the two, I'd recommend the latter.

I recently received the revised edition of the Simmons book and was disappointed. There's very little change from the original, and despite it having a copyright date of 2015 the chapter on film still talks about Kodachrome, Panatomic-X, and other films that haven't been available for a long time.

I haven't compared my original copy with the revised edition page-by-page, but it looks like the changes (if any) are very minimal. If you already have the 1987 edition, there's no reason to get the revised edition.
 
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Thank you for stopping by and giving me your thoughts MTGSeattle.

I find it interesting that you should bring up the ROC Empire State field camera, as I was just looking over an Empire State as well. A very interesting camera and the ability to work with glass plates is a neat option. So many options.

I did try a little bit of Ilford's Direct Positive Paper a while back but not enough to really develop any opinions. But I do have some still sitting on the shelf. Unfortunately I can get so easily distracted that I think I'll just leave it sit for now. I really feel I have to stick to my plan and spend some quiet time reading and building my own knowledge base before I wade in with all guns blazing. I don't think I should make any major decisions until I have a better idea of what I need to do. I think I'm just going to have to depend on Ansel's books to get me started in the right direction.

Since it is clear that I have far more 4x5 film available, that is what I will start with. But I hadn't considered using 4x5 film on an 8x10 camera. This information comes just in the nick of time as I was getting ready to ship off a Cambo SC 8x10 monorail tomorrow that was given to me a while back. It is such a behemoth that I was afraid that it would overwhelm me but maybe I'll hold onto that camera for awhile longer instead. I'll check Cambo's web page. Maybe they had a reducing back for that camera which would allow me to get the best of both worlds.
 
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