Instability of ADOX RA4 developer

Until recently I have always used Kodak Ektacolor RA4 developer. When it became impossible to obtain any more I searched around and the only one that I liked the sound of was sold/made under the ADOX lable. I do not like Tetenal what so ever.

I bought a 2.5 lt kit to be used in my Nova Deep-tank processor. It was fine for the 1st week or so then each print I developed had a strong yellow cast that could not be dialed out with filters. It wasn't due to any outside interference when exposing the paper because I developed a new piece without exposing it at all and the colour cast was exactly the same. The developer had not changed colour and was still the same pale straw colour as it was when I first mixed it.

I initially put it down to chemical contamination so I emptied all the slots and the water jackets and gave the processor a thorough deep clean with multiple changes of water. After that I didn't use the processor again for a couple of weeks and refilled everything up again including a fresh mix of the ADOX and started printing again. the first 3 sessions were fine with good clean colour rendition and after replenishing the developer with the recommended amount I didn't do any more printing for a week or so. The 1st print out of the processor had that dreaded yellow cast again.

I am at a loss now which way to go. I have to find another developer which has the same long life characteristics as the Kodak but so far failing miserably! There is a new developer made in Italy by a company called Bellini which has had good reports but I am loath to waste any more money in case the same or similar problem occurs.

Looking at the Tetenal, ADOX and Bellini kits they all have one thing in common. There are only two chemicals mixed to make the working solution whereas the Kodak Ektacolor had 3, plus for the initial new working solution you also had to use a percentage of a 'starter' (About 150cc per 2 litres). I wonder if they are making these kits which are easy to mix with the anticipation that the home user will not use a deep tank with adequate replenishment, so that after a short while it all goes stale.

The only other one I have not been able to find out a great deal about is the Fuji version of the RA4 has anyone had experience of using that?

Going back to the Kodak 3 chemical concentrates, with added 'starter' before using it. I actually use Digibase C41 developer for the colour film and that too comes as 3 seperate stock solutions plus a starter I am about half way through a 5 litre kit used in a 'use once and discard' system. The actual developer concentrates remaining are as good as the day I first bought it, which reinforces my theory that the 2 concentrate solutions are counter productive towards a long life.

I would appreciate constructive comments on this please.

I have used the Adox kit but I only mix an amount for a session and then toss it when I start seeing streaks. I really doubt they thought anyone would be using it in any other way. It's a product for amateurs. As that, it's a pretty good product. I think I developed 200 8x10 sheets with the first kit I had. That was without using all of it - I had about 1/4 of it left in the open bottles for too long. Even when I tried using that old developer, which had been in open bottles for about 2 years by that point, it didn't have a yellow cast on the print - it just didn't develop the print well.
Perhaps it's actually an issue with the bleach? That's a thoroughly uneducated guess.

BMbikerider said:

The only other one I have not been able to find out a great deal about is the Fuji version of the RA4 has anyone had experience of using that?

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I have been using Fuji RA4 for a few years now, in trays, but a replenished system essentially. I've been using the same 1 liter volume for about 2 years now I reckon, with frequent replenishment. The working stock developer looks like coca cola due to all the sensitizing dyes dissolved into it, but prints are clean and consistent. The developer is a monoconcentrate which keeps well both as a concentrate and a working stock as long as it's stored in PE or glass bottles without any air.

koraks said:

I have been using Fuji RA4 for a few years now, in trays, but a replenished system essentially. I've been using the same 1 liter volume for about 2 years now I reckon, with frequent replenishment. The working stock developer looks like coca cola due to all the sensitizing dyes dissolved into it, but prints are clean and consistent. The developer is a monoconcentrate which keeps well both as a concentrate and a working stock as long as it's stored in PE or glass bottles without any air.

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Thanks for that input. Since I posted the message, I spoke to a company in UK, actually the one that makes the Nova processors. They also run a mini lab and the chemicals they use are Tetenal, but not like you or I can buy, the one they use is very much like the Kodak with 3 bottles of developer components and a starter. He is going to speak to them on my behalf to see if they can make smaller quantities for the likes of us who do not have a large throughput.

With the FUJI chems you use I understand the single concentrate principal and assume you do not need a starter, am I thinking on the right lines. What is the size you buy they may be different in UK. I am well versed in storing the chemicals. Apart from the working solution in the NOVA which is made from acrylic and impervious to the ingress of oxygen anyway. Bottles of replenisher are all in glass screw top 1/2 litre sizes and the same in 100cc for the daily replenishment after use. When you replenish the developer what ratio do you use? For the Kodak it was 100cc for every 800sq ins of paper.

Don Heisz said:

I have used the Adox kit but I only mix an amount for a session and then toss it when I start seeing streaks. I really doubt they thought anyone would be using it in any other way. It's a product for amateurs. As that, it's a pretty good product. I think I developed 200 8x10 sheets with the first kit I had. That was without using all of it - I had about 1/4 of it left in the open bottles for too long. Even when I tried using that old developer, which had been in open bottles for about 2 years by that point, it didn't have a yellow cast on the print - it just didn't develop the print well.
Perhaps it's actually an issue with the bleach? That's a thoroughly uneducated guess.

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If it is only intended for rotary use and not a deep tank there should be a warning on the kit when you buy it. I have told the company where I bought it from and they have taken it on board and will be speaking to the distributors in UK.

It is very definitely not the bleach/fix because the paper last night was only developed as a blank piece of paper and then rinsed in the stop bath before putting the room light on, the bright yellow was immediately obvious.

BMbikerider said:

Looking at the Tetenal, ADOX and Bellini kits they all have one thing in common. There are only two chemicals mixed to make the working solution whereas the Kodak Ektacolor had 3.

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Well, Fuji too only use 2 components.

BMbikerider said:

With the FUJI chems you use I understand the single concentrate principal and assume you do not need a starter, am I thinking on the right lines

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It does require a starter, but alternatively a fresh tank can be seasoned instead by running a decent amount of paper through it.

BMbikerider said:

What is the size you buy they may be different in UK.

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I'd have to look it up, but last time I bought it I think it was 4x2.5l concentrate per carton, so 50l working stock at 1+4 dilution. Fuji had many product types and packaging options so YMMV indeed.

BMbikerider said:

When you replenish the developer what ratio do you use?

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Seat of the pants...but with Fuji's MP developers the amount is embedded in the product number. I use MP90 currently which is 90ml per square meter. I just replenish more than this in practice, which seems to work OK.

Yes, as koraks said, Fuji has many monocomponent developer solutions available (from low to hi replenish rate).

I started running low on my Kodak Ektacolor RA4 RT/LU chemicals and as they were unavailable I bought Fuji MP60AC that comes in 6x2L concentrates. That makes 6x10L of replenisher. For preparing "fresh tank" solution (which is what we home users would call "working" solution) you mix 400ml of replenisher with 480ml of water and 120ml of starter. So that basically gives you 6x25L of working solution. Price for developer was 70 EUR. When you compare that to the price of Adox or Tetenal home user RA-4 kits it's ridiculously cheap and the only problem you have (as a home user) is finding enough time to print enough images to use all the stuff before it goes bad.

I don't have many experience with this developer as I just started to use it but it seem to work OK for me. I bought the wrong starter (I got Enviroprint Universal Developer Starter instead of Enviroprint General Developer Starter AC), so I tried using it with the wrong starter and without the starter and both seem to work. Haven't done side-by-side comparison to Kodak Ektacolor RA4 RT/LU yet, though... I develop in drums so I can't comment on longevity of the working solution.

BMbikerider said:

If it is only intended for rotary use and not a deep tank there should be a warning on the kit when you buy it

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I didn't mean it was intended to be used rotary only - I meant maybe it wasn't formulated for extended use once diluted. But if it has replenishment instructions, I guess that's not the issue.

@Team ADOX might be interested in your experience.

brbo said:

Yes, as koraks said, Fuji has many monocomponent developer solutions available (from low to hi replenish rate).

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Is that so? I only see 2-component RA Dev and Bleach replenishers at their regular ranges. A monocompound Dev replenisher I only see at their Fast Processing range, a MP Dev not at all.

Don't know where you're looking but if you search a bit there's some information about the various MP developers, all of which are monoconcentrates. E.g. here https://asset.fujifilm.com/www/it/f...4599370edad/TB_Minilab_chemical_E01_10-20.pdf

AgX said:

Is that so? I only see 2-component RA Dev and Bleach replenishers at their regular ranges. A monocompound Dev replenisher I only see at their Fast Processing range, a MP Dev not at all.

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It most certainly is so. What is more, I couldn't find any 3 or 2 compound RA-4 developers available from any manufacturer at the time which I would prefer for my use (better shelf life, at least in theory).

Late last year I opened a thread, asking about the longevity of Tetenal Monoline RA4. Single solution, which is diluted to become replenisher. Starter can be added with more water to make tank solution.

So far it has been doing good with sporadic use in my Nova. It's dark blue grey, but does its thing.

The concentrate in the opened bottle seems to darken a little. So I didn't wait and instead diluted all of it and store it in PET and Glas bottles. No changes in colour since December.

brbo said:

better shelf life, at least in theory

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That's what you'd expect and indeed I was a little worried about the Fuji developer initially. Now that I've seen it last for several years (!) I've stopped worrying.

koraks said:

Now that I've seen it last for several years (!) I've stopped worrying.

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Well, your experience that you shared in other threads did make me more at ease to get the Fuji developer. Of course, price and unavailability of other options played their part too...

For me it was also a pragmatic decision. Reading on here I originally intended to go with Kodak chemistry, but it was already virtually unobtainable here when I started out.

brbo said:

Yes, as koraks said, Fuji has many monocomponent developer solutions available (from low to hi replenish rate).

I started running low on my Kodak Ektacolor RA4 RT/LU chemicals and as they were unavailable I bought Fuji MP60AC that comes in 6x2L concentrates. That makes 6x10L of replenisher. For preparing "fresh tank" solution (which is what we home users would call "working" solution) you mix 400ml of replenisher with 480ml of water and 120ml of starter. So that basically gives you 6x25L of working solution. Price for developer was 70 EUR. When you compare that to the price of Adox or Tetenal home user RA-4 kits it's ridiculously cheap and the only problem you have (as a home user) is finding enough time to print enough images to use all the stuff before it goes bad.

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I had already worked out the economy of the Fuji RA4 developer and the answers on here persuaded me to seriously think about it. The smallest concentrate kit for the developer and starter in uk is priced at around £110 so if you only use 50% of a box it is still a heck of a lot cheaper than the Tetenal or Adox with the advantage of reliability. - Now if we can only get either Kodak, or Fuji, or both, to get their collective acts together an resume a decent supply of film and paper then we could be verging on normal again. Why is it the supply of 120 film is easier to get hold of than 35mm? I have enough 35mm to be going on with but that won't last for ever! Time to get a spare back for my Bronica SQ-a I feel.

BMbikerider said:

Why is it the supply of 120 film is easier to get hold of than 35mm?

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Because the capacity for confectioning for 135 - the slitting, sprocket punching, edge numbering, cassetting and boxing - has been downsized too far, and there isn't enough to keep up with the surprisingly high and growing demand.
And that has been complicated vastly by all the supply disruptions worldwide for all sorts of constituent components/parts.
There are challenges even with the production of film - particularly things like getting their hands on the tri-acetate base, in sufficient quantity, and at ever increasing prices.
From what I understand from my contacts, they are struggling to get their hands on just about everything they need, everything is more expensive and delayed, and getting things shipped promptly (or sometimes at all) is difficult and expensive.
Relatively speaking, the demand for 120 is tiny compared to 135, as is the increase in demand.