Inquiry about the ECN developer freeze, what is the best method to remove (rem-jet)

mohmad khatab · May 2, 2020

Hello, dear colleagues.
God bless you all .
_________________________
first inquiry about the developers' freeze?
I had once read the topic of a long discussion and there was a member of the forum presented this proposal that the developer mix any type of developer (according to what I understood at the time) and that one liter is divided into the number of small plastic bottles each of them 330 ml.
- I did just that, I used the first bottle at the time and the other two bottles were stored in a freezer, and after two weeks I took out the second bottle from the freezer for use, but unfortunately, I found that the developer had deposits and produced this very weak image.
Second inquiry : Regarding the best method for removing (Rem-jet) from Kodak Vision 3 film by manual method,
I do not have a rotary machine. I used the official published formula to remove this layer but it didn't work well, and the effects of the Rem-jet layer remained until the last stages of the installation.
- I think the official published version is for automatic machines that have a very fine mechanical brush that helps remove that layer. Of course I am using a regular Patterson tank and there is absolutely no chance of me doing that,
What is the best formula for such a solution that can remove that layer by hand.?
Third inquiry : I know that bleach separate from fixing is preferable.
- However, I have a good amount of BILIX solution and I want to use it in order to benefit from it, can it work, regardless of the quality and accuracy of the results?

I am very grateful to all colleagues who always give me advice and guidance. The valuable information is the result of in-depth experiences and tests.
God bless you

pentaxuser · May 2, 2020

mohmad, I am sure others that know more about colour chemicals than I do will respond but on your first question can I ask: did you mean a freezer like one that cools things down to minus 18 degrees centrigrade so the liquid in the bottles was solid or what we call a refrigerator which cools thing to about 3-4 degrees centigrade? Were the bottles frozen solid?

There does seem to be a method of washing out remjet quite easily and I have seen a video about it but I cannot say where this video was It may have been on Youtube.

On blix my understanding is that it work fine but does not last as long as separate bleach and fix so needs to be changed more often

pentaxuser

mohmad khatab · May 2, 2020

pentaxuser said:
mohmad, I am sure others that know more about colour chemicals than I do will respond but on your first question can I ask: did you mean a freezer like one that cools things down to minus 18 degrees centrigrade so the liquid in the bottles was solid or what we call a refrigerator which cools thing to about 3-4 degrees centigrade? Were the bottles frozen solid?

There does seem to be a method of washing out remjet quite easily and I have seen a video about it but I cannot say where this video was It may have been on Youtube.

On blix my understanding is that it work fine but does not last as long as separate bleach and fix so needs to be changed more often

pentaxuser

Yes, my brother ,,
Freeze liquids in the freezer, until the liquids are completely solid (a piece of solid ice inside a bottle).
- All the experiments that I conducted result in failure, I am really annoyed and I do not know what is the reason.?

koraks · May 2, 2020

Solubility of salts decreases as temperature drops. So in the process of freezing, it's not surprising that some of the constituents of the developer fall out of solution. In my experience, especially with developer concentrates, it's sometimes impossible to get the sediments to redissolve again as the liquid warms up. I think you've experimentally determined that at least with the developer you used, it's not a good idea to cool it too much. Better store it at room temperature, and the best option in my opinion is to mix only so much as you will need over a short timeframe.

mohmad khatab said:
Second inquiry : Regarding the best method for removing (Rem-jet) from Kodak Vision 3 film by manual method

Refer to my earlier comments on this question. The procedure I outlined there should work fine in a Paterson tank at room temperature. The remjet removal liquid is a solution of a little borax and some sulfite; if I recall correctly, it's 10% w/v sulfite and something like 1% w/v borax. The concentrations aren't very critical.
If any remjet remains after processing, wipe it off the film with a soft (lint-free) cloth.

mohmad khatab said:
- However, I have a good amount of BILIX solution and I want to use it in order to benefit from it, can it work, regardless of the quality and accuracy of the results?

I don't know 100% certain, but it will most likely work just fine. Give it a try.

pentaxuser · May 2, 2020

mohmad, that was why I asked if it was a freezer. I could not be sure but I felt I had read somewhere and it was probably here on Photrio that freezing any photographic chemicals could result in problems when thawed out back into a liquid state and koraks has confirmed this to be the case

My sympathies if this has ruined these chemicals as they are not cheap to make or buy.

pentaxuser

Randy Stewart · May 4, 2020

Comment on freezing chemistry. For many years I have compounded my own C-41 and E-6 chemistry from bulk chemicals. At least for E-6, the process is time consuming, so I make larger batches than I immediately need and store the surplus by freezing. For my purposes, that means freezing the solutions in 250ml plastic bottles. So stored, they last at least as long as I have ever tried, being about one year. I prepare for use by warming the bottles to room temperature well in advance, then warming them further to their processing temperature of about 105F. My concern when I first tried this was that one or more of the components would have percipitated at freezing and would not go back into solution. For me, that has not been a problem.

You didn't say whether you were freezing B&W or color developer, but I'll assume B&W. You might try unfreezing your developer by warming it up to 110F or more, stir the warm solution and examine for any undissolved particles. I suspect that if you find no undissolved chemical in the solution, that it should work properly for you. I have no personal information on the shelf life of such chemistry once it has been thawed, so I would plan to use it within a day or two.

Good luck!

koraks · May 5, 2020

Randy Stewart said:
You didn't say whether you were freezing B&W or color developer

It says in the thread title; ECN chemistry, likely ECN2 developer.

mohmad khatab · May 5, 2020

Randy Stewart said:
Comment on freezing chemistry. For many years I have compounded my own C-41 and E-6 chemistry from bulk chemicals. At least for E-6, the process is time consuming, so I make larger batches than I immediately need and store the surplus by freezing. For my purposes, that means freezing the solutions in 250ml plastic bottles. So stored, they last at least as long as I have ever tried, being about one year. I prepare for use by warming the bottles to room temperature well in advance, then warming them further to their processing temperature of about 105F. My concern when I first tried this was that one or more of the components would have percipitated at freezing and would not go back into solution. For me, that has not been a problem.

You didn't say whether you were freezing B&W or color developer, but I'll assume B&W. You might try unfreezing your developer by warming it up to 110F or more, stir the warm solution and examine for any undissolved particles. I suspect that if you find no undissolved chemical in the solution, that it should work properly for you. I have no personal information on the shelf life of such chemistry once it has been thawed, so I would plan to use it within a day or two.

Good luck!

Yes brother, that's exactly what I was looking for.
I remember this discussion ,,
- At the beginning, the late Mr. Ron Maori was opposed to this idea.
- At the end of the day he apologized, and admitted his mistake as he believed that the freezing would cause oil spots, but he realized that this would not happen with these modern current solutions, but perhaps that could have happened with the chemistry of the process (( C22)) as it contains Benzyl Alkhol,
The bottom line is that everyone agreed that freezing chemistry is absolutely harmless.
- My goal was to freeze 320ml plastic containers, because each package can be used to develop a film roll.
- Yes, we will consider that the life of this package will be effective for one day only. This is a very good thing.
We can freeze these chemical solutions and use them on request for one or more shots, but on the same day.
In the light of this matter, the chemistry liter (liter) can be divided into three packages, and this will be very useful for any photographer who develops two rolls each week.

mohmad khatab · May 5, 2020

koraks said:
Solubility of salts decreases as temperature drops. So in the process of freezing, it's not surprising that some of the constituents of the developer fall out of solution. In my experience, especially with developer concentrates, it's sometimes impossible to get the sediments to redissolve again as the liquid warms up. I think you've experimentally determined that at least with the developer you used, it's not a good idea to cool it too much. Better store it at room temperature, and the best option in my opinion is to mix only so much as you will need over a short timeframe.

Refer to my earlier comments on this question. The procedure I outlined there should work fine in a Paterson tank at room temperature. The remjet removal liquid is a solution of a little borax and some sulfite; if I recall correctly, it's 10% w/v sulfite and something like 1% w/v borax. The concentrations aren't very critical.
If any remjet remains after processing, wipe it off the film with a soft (lint-free) cloth.

I don't know 100% certain, but it will most likely work just fine. Give it a try.

Yes brother, I have followed your guidelines and these are the results. Of course, they look modest, but they are good for a start.
Scanning is done with a digital camera with a hand-made primitive tool.
thank you my dear

tlloydau · May 5, 2020

I’ve had good luck removing remjet in a normal Paterson tank with one of the alternate formulas Kodak publishes in their literature. 1000l water, 58g sodium carbonate, and 19g sodium bicarbonate mixed at development temperature. The tank is shaken vigorously for 1.5 minutes and then the film is washed (again at temp) till the water runs clear. For Fuji Eterna that should be it while Kodak Vision will need a pass of the squeegee and a quick dunk back in wetting agent for good measure.
https://www.kodak.com/uploadedfiles/motion/h2407.pdf

mohmad khatab · May 6, 2020

tlloydau said:
I’ve had good luck removing remjet in a normal Paterson tank with one of the alternate formulas Kodak publishes in their literature. 1000l water, 58g sodium carbonate, and 19g sodium bicarbonate mixed at development temperature. The tank is shaken vigorously for 1.5 minutes and then the film is washed (again at temp) till the water runs clear. For Fuji Eterna that should be it while Kodak Vision will need a pass of the squeegee and a quick dunk back in wetting agent for good measure.
https://www.kodak.com/uploadedfiles/motion/h2407.pdf

tlloydau Thank you very much
God bless you

Inquiry about the ECN developer freeze, what is the best method to remove (rem-jet)

mohmad khatab

pentaxuser

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Inquiry about the ECN developer freeze, what is the best method to remove (rem-jet)

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