Ink jet digital negatives - what substrates and what printers

juanito · Oct 29, 2006

Hi RobertP,

I do all of my work on a powerbook G4 that runs at 1 GHz and with 768 Mb of ram, so I think you have enaugh hardware to do 16X20 digital negs. The only thing I strongly recomend you is a monitor calibration device. I have the spyder 2 from colorvision. Once your system is calibrated you are going to be able to get a perfect negative at the first run.

AndyLiakos · Nov 7, 2006

Using a 2200 with Pictorico OHP... finally tweaked the curve to work well with Palladium. Planning to do some lith printing this week with the digital negs... haven't done anything larger than letter yet. Did some negs from IR files with very nice results... will post shortly...

Andy

sanking · Nov 17, 2006

I am using an Epson 2200 and both Pictorico OHP and a material called Crystal Clear sold by PhotoWarehouse. Crystal Clear is very inexpensive compared to Pictorico, but pigment inks do not dry on it as hard as they do on Pictorico. However, I also use a piece of mylar between the negative and sensitized paper so this characteristic is not a problem for me. And Crystal Clear has an advantage in that there is a higher transmission of UV light than with Pictorico so printing times are faster by about 1/2 stop.

Sandy

Digidurst · Nov 18, 2006

sanking said:
I am using an Epson 2200 and both Pictorico OHP and a material called Crystal Clear sold by PhotoWarehouse. Crystal Clear is very inexpensive compared to Pictorico, but pigment inks do not dry on it as hard as they do on Pictorico. However, I also use a piece of mylar between the negative and sensitized paper so this characteristic is not a problem for me. And Crystal Clear has an advantage in that there is a higher transmission of UV light than with Pictorico so printing times are faster by about 1/2 stop.

Sandy

Good thinking about the mylar sandwich! Thanks for posting - I had not used my supply of the Crystal Clear for just that reason, thinking I would set it aside and tackle the issue another day or just use it for something else.

sanking · Nov 18, 2006

Digidurst said:
Good thinking about the mylar sandwich! Thanks for posting - I had not used my supply of the Crystal Clear for just that reason, thinking I would set it aside and tackle the issue another day or just use it for something else.

BTW, I permanently attach the mylar to the Crystal Clear negative, taping it down with red lithographer's tape. This provides permanent protection of the surface of the negative, and if any sticks to the surface of facing mylar there is no problem since the two are in permanent contact. The lithographer's tape is positioned so that it masks the negative as needed. I do same thing with Pictorico since any humidity in the sensitized material can cause the pigmented inks to stick and pull off, ruing the negative. I even use the mylar with in-camera negatives, though with them I do not permanently attached the mylar.

Sandy King

Digidurst · Nov 19, 2006

sanking said:
BTW, I permanently attach the mylar to the Crystal Clear negative, taping it down with red lithographer's tape....Sandy King

Do you have a local source for your tape or are you getting it off the net somewhere?

sanking · Nov 19, 2006

Digidurst said:
Do you have a local source for your tape or are you getting it off the net somewhere?

I bought a case of twenty rolls of 1" wide tape several years ago from a company called Uline. However, they no longer carry the tape and I am about to run out so I will soon be looking for some on the net. Hopefully someone might jump in here and direct us to a source. I have done several searches and did not have any problem finding 1/2" wide tape but was not able to locate anything wider than that.

Sandy

clay · Nov 19, 2006

The graphics part of Badger Graphics sells all sorts of stuff like this. I got some tape, some orange plastic masking film (cheaper than rolls of rubylith) from them.

sanking said:
I bought a case of twenty rolls of 1" wide tape several years ago from a company called Uline. However, they no longer carry the tape and I am about to run out so I will soon be looking for some on the net. Hopefully someone might jump in here and direct us to a source. I have done several searches and did not have any problem finding 1/2" wide tape but was not able to locate anything wider than that.

Sandy

Digidurst · Nov 19, 2006

clay said:
The graphics part of Badger Graphics sells all sorts of stuff like this. I got some tape, some orange plastic masking film (cheaper than rolls of rubylith) from them.

Thanks for the info, Clay!

xtype · Nov 21, 2006

the epson R800, 2100 & R2400 all produce good results for iron-based prints on Pictorico. most of the inks, both epson and various aftermarket, have UV blocking properties, and just have to be tested with your equipment. color calibration is a difficult call with negative making - the process relies on reflected light and is meant to give good results for printing on paper, not transparancies. i try to let them dry overnight.

wiz · Dec 29, 2006

Mainly alternative processes: platinum, gum, Van Dyke and carbon...

For silver gelatin and AZO (I don't currently print either of those larger than 13x19) as well as alternative processes up to 13x19, an Epson 2200 loaded with my own "wizard's magic potion" of five dilutions of MIS PKN ink in square root of 10 progression (100%, 32%, 10%, 3.2% and 1%) (two of the 2200's 7 slots are occupied by inks used for printing B&W glossy and matte images directly) and either the GP4 based QTR or my own GP5 based rip called GRIP. It's got the least "dottiness" of any inkjet negative I've seen. New process will be moving to an Epson 1800 with 8 dilutions of PKN in fourth root progression. Substrate is Pictorico OHP.

It's all described in another thread...

http://www.hybridphoto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44&page=7

For alternative processes bigger than 13x19, either an Epson 4000 or 7600 with stock inks and custom curves.

Ray Heath · Dec 29, 2006

Joe Lipka said:
Pictorico OHP and Epson R2400. Have not gone beyond letter size.

g'day all

what is "Pictorico"?

is it a widely available 'office' product, or is it a specialty imaging product?

donbga · Dec 29, 2006

Ray Heath said:
g'day all

what is "Pictorico"?

is it a widely available 'office' product, or is it a specialty imaging product?

Check:
http://www.pictorico.com/category/3-OHP-Transparency-Film.htm

for more information.

Don Bryant

Dave Miller · Feb 1, 2007

Ray Heath said:
g'day all

what is "Pictorico"?

is it a widely available 'office' product, or is it a specialty imaging product?

Your problem Ray may be the same as mine; this stuff is not available outside of the USA. I have tried several USA online retailers to order some, but their shipping rates are truly eye-watering.

Keith Taylor · Feb 1, 2007

sanking said:
I bought a case of twenty rolls of 1" wide tape several years ago from a company called Uline. However, they no longer carry the tape and I am about to run out so I will soon be looking for some on the net. Hopefully someone might jump in here and direct us to a source. I have done several searches and did not have any problem finding 1/2" wide tape but was not able to locate anything wider than that.

Sandy

Sandy,

The page on Uline's website for 1" 3M 616 llithographers tape is here. http://www.uline.com/Browse_Listing_6413.asp?desc=3M+616+Lithographers+Tape Uline's code for it is S-7857.

Keith.

sanking · Feb 2, 2007

Keith Taylor said:
Sandy,

The page on Uline's website for 1" 3M 616 llithographers tape is here. http://www.uline.com/Browse_Listing_6413.asp?desc=3M+616+Lithographers+Tape Uline's code for it is S-7857.

Keith.

Hi Keith. Thanks for the link.

BTW, I saw some of your beautiful color gum work at APIS in 2005. How are you producing your separation negatives? Imagesetter, inkjet or other?

Sandy King

Keith Taylor · Feb 2, 2007

sanking said:
Hi Keith. Thanks for the link.

BTW, I saw some of your beautiful color gum work at APIS in 2005. How are you producing your separation negatives? Imagesetter, inkjet or other?

Sandy King

Hi Sandy,

The gum prints of Cy's work that you saw at APIS were all imagesetter negs. At the time I had a local service bureau output them for me, but they sold their equipment and so now I'm working with Duane at Copygraphics and couldn't be happier.

Since Santa Fe in 2005 though, I've been working with a colour management guy who's created a profile for me for the gums. The RGB file is converted from the working space of Adobe RGB to my profile, the channels are split into three grayscale files and uploaded to Duane. This, combined with a profile for soft-proofing, really means I'm getting on paper what I see on my monitor.

For platinum and smaller gum prints I use inkjet negs - Epson 2200 and 4000.

Keith.

Davec101 · Feb 4, 2007

I have tried to print with my Epson 3800 with permajet transparcancy (Similar to Pictorico) but the ink keeps on pooling, have not been able to find a paper setting that stops this. There is no back light film or Ink jet Transparency setting in the European driver which i use for my Epson R220 or 1290.

I will keep trying various settings to see if I can solve this problem,there is an vast array of settings to control the timing of the head pass and ink etc.. which might help.

Has anyone been able to print using K3 inks on Pictorico or Permajet transparency?

Keith you mention Cy, is this Cy Decosse. I just spent an arm and a leg on getting a book on his work (http://www.artbooks.de/photo/21st-vol4-1.html). Does he use imagesetter negs for his platinum work?

davidb · Feb 4, 2007

I'm successfully using my Epson 3800 with Agfa Copyjet. I select the Premium Glossy paper option in the driver, and have had no problems at all.

Davec101 · Feb 4, 2007

davidb said:
I'm successfully using my Epson 3800 with Agfa Copyjet. I select the Premium Glossy paper option in the driver, and have had no problems at all.

Thats good news, what's the quality of Copyjet, similar to Pictorico? Are you getting any roller marks at all?

davidb · Feb 4, 2007

Davec said:
Thats good news, what's the quality of Copyjet, similar to Pictorico? Are you getting any roller marks at all?

It is supposed to be very similar to the Pictorico, but I haven't had the opportunity to compare them myself. It's certainly working pretty well for producing negs for pt/pd for me, and I haven't had any issues with roller marks.

Davec101 · Feb 4, 2007

davidb said:
It is supposed to be very similar to the Pictorico, but I haven't had the opportunity to compare them myself. It's certainly working pretty well for producing negs for pt/pd for me, and I haven't had any issues with roller marks.

Thanks David. Have you got any scans of your prints, would be nice to see some. What size are you printing and what method are you using to print out your negs, through photoshop or qtr ?

davidb · Feb 4, 2007

Davec said:
Thanks David. Have you got any scans of your prints, would be nice to see some. What size are you printing and what method are you using to print out your negs, through photoshop or qtr ?

No scans, sorry - I've only been experimenting with pt/pd for a month or two, and I'm still tweaking and testing my printing process. Sorting out my workflow for producing digi negs took the longest time, but I'm happy with them now - I ended up using an amalgam of the various methods discussed here and elsewhere to select a blocking colour and then handbuild a process curve. I'm printing 5x5 at the moment, but I'll probably go bigger once I'm more confident of my technique.

donbga · Feb 4, 2007

I find this surprising since I have a friend here locally that I visited last week that was able to make some beautiful negatives (though not perfectly curved) with his new 3800.

Are you using black only ink? You can reduce the amount of ink in the Epson driver.

Using QTR with the 2400 settings probably won't work well if at all since the print head technology is so much different.

I'm sure Roy will support the 3800 since this is such an astounding printer, IMO.

Don Bryant

Davec101 · Feb 5, 2007

Hi Don

Thanks for your input, I think i will have to tinker about with the settings of the 3800. I am using the photo gloss black with all the other cartridges enabled i.e. colour and two other blacks.
i got a good neg printed using the epson driver yesterday, i think, with semi gloss setting and decreased the head speed by about 1/2 second. I think it must be the permajet transparency film that is causing the problems. I shall see if i can get me a sample of the Agfa or Pictorico to see if this sorts the problem out. I am still a bit worried about the roller marks as it did leave a slight impression on one of the negs, this might just be my unit though.

Ink jet digital negatives - what substrates and what printers

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