"Initiative TRI-X 400/220 Petition"

AgX said:

Kodak do not seek petitions, but cash.

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Agreed! Has anybody ever actually contacted Kodak to ask how much film would have to be sold, at what price to make this a reality?

If Kodak were guaranteed that it could make a profit, perhaps there could be a yearly production run of TX-220. Maybe a database of 220 shooters should be created, so we can find out how many rolls of film are actually needed, and if demand would justify a special production run.

As a wise man once said, "Cash talks, bullshit walks".

My guess is that they look at it as if 220 didn't sell before....why now? Hopefully they could see that TX is the "best selling film" so maybe it would be in 220 too.....

AgX said:

Kodak do not seek petitions, but cash.

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True, very true. They're a business after all, but I still signed it.

Signed. Thanks!

Sirius Glass said:

Even though the ten rolls I ordered got lost by the US Post Office and I cannot get it replaced.

I sighed.

Steve

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Don't completely loose hope. It once took well over one month for a bill my aunt sent to get to it's location.....

This seems like wasted effort to me. Kodak reads
the market, not petitions.

If people are really exercised about this, why not
ask Kodak whether it will do custom runs of the
film. Kodak has always been willing to do custom
runs of sheet films so long as the customer is
willing to pay for it -- about $10,000 if I recall
correctly. Why not ask Kodak whether it will
proceed on this basis? If so, then you have an
answer -- do what ULF shooters do, and buy
a run of the stuff. They're much more likely to
pay attention if you ask them to sell in volume.

I'd be willing to purchase 3-500$ of 220 400TX (would prefer 320TXP though). The 220 does really save me time/space and affords lack of interruption.

Signed. Based on past experience (HIE) I don't expect a positive outcome. Maybe Ilford...?

Renato Tonelli said:

Signed. Based on past experience (HIE) I don't expect a positive outcome. Maybe Ilford...?

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Didn't someone from Ilford say they are actually incapable of manufacturing 220 film? And didn't they also TRY to buy machinery to be able to, but the seller decided to scrap it instead?

Signed. Thanks!

OK. I'll sign for he hell of it...but this petition is about saving black and white 220 format by having Kodak make a "new" 220 film, and is not about saving TXP in medium format. No new 220 films are going to be introduced, folks. Period. Not gonna happen. I think it should be about the latter. You want it to stay, we need to make them think it will be worth their while to keep making TXP in medium format, period. Then we can worry about 220...but at any rate, they will be far more likely to keep TXP around in 220 than they will be to start coating a new emulsion for 220 format. Like the fella above said, buy a master roll's worth, and they will likely do anything. Hey, get 10 fans of 220 TXP together, and it is only a grand each.

The problem is that anybody with any real money shoots digital these days. They don't spend their big money on film now, but on electronics. Good luck keeping things from disappearing without the commercial world moving back toward film. We all flap our gums a lot about the glory of this and that emulsion, but how much do we actually buy, collectively? News flash: people with money control the way things go. You want change, get people with money to make it for you.

Rolleiflexible said:

This seems like wasted effort to me. Kodak reads
the market, not petitions.

If people are really exercised about this, why not
ask Kodak whether it will do custom runs of the
film. Kodak has always been willing to do custom
runs of sheet films so long as the customer is
willing to pay for it -- about $10,000 if I recall
correctly. Why not ask Kodak whether it will
proceed on this basis? If so, then you have an
answer -- do what ULF shooters do, and buy
a run of the stuff. They're much more likely to
pay attention if you ask them to sell in volume.

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Even if I think as Sanders, I just signed the petition.

Okay, well I'd say if people want another master roll of 320TXP-220, they better start anteing up right now - that is if the machines and lines haven't been repurposed/disassembled already (quite likely). Anyone have calculations on how many rolls of 220 can be produced from a single master roll?

clayne said:

Okay, well I'd say if people want another master roll of 320TXP-220, they better start anteing up right now - that is if the machines and lines haven't been repurposed/disassembled already (quite likely). Anyone have calculations on how many rolls of 220 can be produced from a single master roll?

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Kodak still makes 220 color film, right? Do you really think that the machine that makes 220 Portras was different than the one that made 320TXP 220? It's the fact that not enough people were buying that stuff, so it had to be dropped. And I'm afraid that no petition is going to get it back.

Anon Ymous said:

Kodak still makes 220 color film, right? Do you really think that the machine that makes 220 Portras was different than the one that made 320TXP 220? It's the fact that not enough people were buying that stuff, so it had to be dropped. And I'm afraid that no petition is going to get it back.

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TX is a much more popular and well-known emulsion than TXP. In any case, it has to be tried.

By the way, a master roll makes ~35000 135 film, which is ~17.500 220 rolls. That makes the $10.000 mark totally unrealistic. It might be realistic for ULF film, because there's already the film that is used for the usual 4x5 and 8x10 sheets, they don't have to make a master roll specifically for that purpose.

I'm on the side of 2F/2F....I would love to see the 320 come back. I still support this petition but I recently learned that I really like Tri-X 320 and I am upset that I didn't know about it before.....

The purpose of the petition is to see how much interest there is in 220 film by photographers. The only way of knowing is by starting a petition with signatures to show Eastman Kodak how much or how little of a demand there really is. Also, Scott DiSabato stated in an online interview that TXP only accounted for 5% of Kodak's revenue and that TX was always a more popular film in medium format which is why they chose to keep it. To me it made more since to ask them to produce 220 in a format that they are keeping rather than ask them to continue to produce one that they are losing money on which caused them to stop production.

I know that our chances are slim, but there is a chance that they will listen if we make our voices heard. Examples are the production of the new TMAX-400 a couple of years ago and the recent production of Ektar 100 in 35mm, 120, and soon to be sheet film. It is up to as as lovers of this genre to be proactive rather than reactive so I ask that we continue to support this petition so that we can get the needed 1000 signatures to hopefully move this project forward.

Thank you,
Jamusu.

lxdude said:

Yep. But we can't buy it if it doesn't exist.

Signed.

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Evidently not many did, when it did.

Here's hoping this succeeds.

It makes sense to ask for new products by collecting information about public interest. Any company would appreciate this kind of information collecting work. They can then make their decision based partly on that information if it seems plausible.

It is impossible to buy products that do not exist. New products can only be hoped for or asked.

220 film has the same 100 um acetate base as 120 film so it wouldn't need a new master roll.

The only way of knowing is by starting a petition with signatures to show Eastman Kodak how much or how little of a demand there really is.

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Why do you think Kodak needs a petition with signatures to know this? They were selling the film themselves and know firsthand what the demand is. That's better data than any petition. It's amazing to me that you think you need to let kodak know what the demand for their film is, as if they don't know.

Signed. Without asking you only have a "no" on hand. So go and ask them.

In these axing culture every effort can count for double.

Good luck

rhmimac

hrst said:

...It is impossible to buy products that do not exist. New products can only be hoped for or asked.

220 film has the same 100 um acetate base as 120 film so it wouldn't need a new master roll.

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I guess I need to clarify what I said earlier. What I said about a new master roll was because someone else talked about TXP specifically, not TX, although this thread is about 400TX in 220.

jamusu said:

... Also, Scott DiSabato stated in an online interview that TXP only accounted for 5% of Kodak's revenue and that TX was always a more popular film in medium format which is why they chose to keep it...

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I'm afraid that's not true. Scott DiSabato said that TXP's sales were less than 5% of total Tri-X sales, certainly not Kodak's revenue. I wish you good luck though.

BetterSense said:

Why do you think Kodak needs a petition with signatures to know this? They were selling the film themselves and know firsthand what the demand is. That's better data than any petition. It's amazing to me that you think you need to let kodak know what the demand for their film is, as if they don't know.

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I respect James (and all who have signed) for at least giving it a try. There's nothing to lose. And it feels a whole lot better than just taking the "oh, well, woe is me" approach.

I must be crazy, but here we go again.

The only way of knowing is by starting a petition with signatures to show Eastman Kodak how much or how little of a demand there really is.

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Significant, ongoing purchases of the stuff during the decades 220 was offered would have been even better. Kodak already knows how little demand there is.

I know that our chances are slim, but there is a chance that they will listen if we make our voices heard.

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Ahh, but our collective voice has been heard: long, marketplace silences; occasionally a weak, hoarse whisper, but too quiet to disturb a void also unpunctuated by ringing cash registers.

Examples are the production of the new TMAX-400 a couple of years ago and the recent production of Ektar 100 in 35mm, 120, and soon to be sheet film.

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Yes, examples of a company finding new forms and markets for existing selling products, or offering updates / replacements for products with good track records. In other words, NOT 220.

It is up to as as lovers of this genre to be proactive rather than reactive so I ask that we continue to support this petition so that we can get the needed 1000 signatures to hopefully move this project forward.

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Proactive? Project?

If it's results you're after, rather than the nobility of an empty symbolic gesture, take some real initiative. Ring up Kodak, and find out what it would cost to start from scratch to produce a run of the mythical beast 220 400TX. (Even better, figure on two or more production runs, to help spread out some of the startup costs, and to ensure there will be no future petition drives when enthusiasm wanes, yet again.) Double (at least) that number for good measure, then divide by 1000. Pass the hat among the members of the 220 Gelatin Millenium and have each kick in his/her share. Wrap the cash in your petition and take that up to Rochester.

IOW, put your money where your mouth is, in a way that the supposed legions of 220 "lovers" haven't been sufficiently willing to do for decades. Otherwise, from Kodak's viewpoint, it's all talk and nothing more. Prove them wrong with something more real than the candyfloss of your good intentions.

If not, then can we please call a moratorium on further postmortem product petitions here?