Inexpensive 4x5 for 6x12

wjlapier · May 19, 2020

I have most of the parts to shoot 6x12 and even attempted it once with a Toyo 45AR, but found the camera very heavy in the end and sold it. The parts I have are a Dayi 6x12 film back and Fotoman GG Viewfinder. I have several lenses for LF but will focus on the Fujinon 65mm f/8 for now. Can you recommend a 4x5 camera with Graflok back I could relatively easily shoot some 6x12 images? It would be nice to put all this in a backpack for some hikes and climbs in Glacier National Park--we spend our summers around Glacier each year. Looking for something sturdy, not giant, and not expensive. If anyone shoots 6x12 this way I would love to hear your workflow.

Thanks as usual for the advice.

grat · May 19, 2020

I would check out the Intrepid, the Chroma, and the Chamonix. All three are lightweight, compact, and have graflok type backs. Note that the Chamonix is not inexpensive, but is very lightweight and just incredibly nice to use.

awty · May 19, 2020

I made my own using the back of a holga 6x12 pinhole camera, attached to a Landy, with a 90mm super angulan,, super light and I can extend the bellows for close ups...Cheap and easy, just like me
Dont see why you couldnt attach a film back.

ColdEye · May 19, 2020

awty said:
I made my own using the back of a holga 6x12 pinhole camera, attached to a Landy, with a 90mm super angulan,, super light and I can extend the bellows for close ups...Cheap and easy, just like me
Dont see why you couldnt attach a film back.

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Wow, that is awesome. Any chance you have something written up on how to do that conversion? And how do you focus, rangefinder or ground glass?

Dan Fromm · May 19, 2020

OP, the 4x5 Crown Graphic's minimum extension is 52.4 mm. Might not be to your taste, but it is an option. I thought very hard about getting one when I was looking at going 6x12. I did something else because I wanted to use lenses much shorter than 65 mm.

Tom Kershaw · May 19, 2020

Dan Fromm said:
OP, the 4x5 Crown Graphic's minimum extension is 52.4 mm. Might not be to your taste, but it is an option. I thought very hard about getting one when I was looking at going 6x12. I did something else because I wanted to use lenses much shorter than 65 mm.

Dan,

What option did you go for in the end? I've got a fully rebuilt / serviced Super Angulon 75mm f/8 ready to go onto a 6x12 camera at some point.

Dan Fromm · May 19, 2020

Tom, when one of my friends was dying he gave me his 2x3 Cambo SC. Up to then I'd shot 2x3 with 2x3 Pacemaker Graphics and had many too many lenses on boards for them. To use them on my new treasure I had a adapter board (mounts a 2x3 Pacemaker board on a 2x3 SC board, size 123 mm square) made.

Along the way and for entirely other reasons I acquired a 4x5 Cambo SC.

When I decided to go 6x12 I made a hybrid Cambo SC. 2x3 front standard, so I could use my lenses; tapered bellows; 4x5 rear standard. Cambo makes a tapered regular bellows for this purpose, I got one. They also make a tapered bag bellows, far too expensive for me then. Instead I sacrificed two lens boards (front, 123x123, rear 162x162) to make bellows frames and made a tapered bag bellows. The shortest lens the hybrid will focus on a flat board is a 35/4.5 Apo-Grandagon. I sacrificed a 123x123 Cambo recessed board to make an adapter to hold an Ilex #3 mounted on a Graphic board with a 60/14 Perigraphe stuffed into the front so I could use it on the hybrid. This is the only recessed board I use. I have a couple of spares, don't anticipate using them.

Doing all this made economic sense given that I had a 2x3 Cambo SC and all those lenses on Graphic boards and the adapter board. If you start from scratch I don't see how you can justify doing what I did. It made sense in my rare (unique?) situation. Otherwise, no.

IMO, if you want 6x12 with movements, the least costly solutions are a Cambo SC-2 (that's the 4x5er) or a Sinar with Graflok back. If you want 6x12 without movements, or perhaps without much movements, go for the least expensive press/technical camera you can find that will focus the shortest lens you intend to use and has a Graflok back.

Good luck, have fun.

Ariston · May 19, 2020

awty said:
I made my own using the back of a holga 6x12 pinhole camera, attached to a Landy, with a 90mm super angulan,, super light and I can extend the bellows for close ups...Cheap and easy, just like me
Dont see why you couldnt attach a film back.

View attachment 246570 View attachment 246572 View attachment 246573 View attachment 246574

I am interested in this, too. The 6x12 roll film holders are crazy expensive.

awty · May 19, 2020

ColdEye said:
Wow, that is awesome. Any chance you have something written up on how to do that conversion? And how do you focus, rangefinder or ground glass?

No, but I took some after pictures, its pretty straightforward, just a bit of dremeling and sealing up the light leaks. The film holder is permanently attached, so I zone focus ( guess) and f22 fixes any inaccuracies. Use a home made ground glass to set infinity and can use the slider to push the bellows forwards for close ups. It wouldnt be hard to do a better job and use a removable back, but they cost so much. I paid $200 for the lens, $100 for the holga and land cameras can be bought for lose change.
If you aren't sure of something, ask.
I plan on making another with another focal length lens.

awty · May 19, 2020

Ariston said:
I am interested in this, too. The 6x12 roll film holders are crazy expensive.

Yep. And holgas are so cheap. This seems to be the cheapest way to make a 6x12 with a decent lens. Although a lomography Belair might be even easier.

wjlapier · May 20, 2020

I looked at the Holgamod 6x12 cameras and maybe with the money spent "might" go this way even with the 12 week delay.

I'm not opposed to the Crown Graphic 4x5 but I'm wondering if all of them have the fold down bed--read somewhere to ask sellers about the bed folding down. I'm looking at the Graflex 4x5 Crown on eBay.

About the Toyo View 4x5 cameras--heavy? Heavy as the Toyo 45A? Would you need a recessed lens board for the Toyo View cameras?

Dan Fromm · May 20, 2020

All Pacemaker Graphics (Pacemaker Speed Graphic, Pacemaker Crown Graphic, Century Graphics) have drop beds.

If you want to look at catalogs and more, start with the link in the first post in this https://www.largeformatphotography....to-look-for-information-on-LF-(mainly)-lenses discussion.

wjlapier · May 21, 2020

I went ahead and purchased this one after they sent me a lower purchase price.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Graflex-4X...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

I see there are various different Crown Graphics. Some have the RFer on top and some on the side. This one has a VFer on top and cold shoe, and what looks like the RFer on the side--I won't be needing the RFer since I will use the GG I have.

Any idea what exact model this is and where I can find a manual? What size lens board will I need? I have one shutter that is copal 0.

Dan Fromm · May 21, 2020

There are two models of 4x5 Crown Graphic. You have an original, which doesn't have a model designation, with the optional side rangefinder. The later Crown Graphic Special has a top rangefinder.

You need a 4x5 Pacemaker Graphic lens board. Boards for the later Super Graphic will also fit. No other lens boards will fit. These are stamped metal boards with lips that fit the standard's light trap. Earlier Speed Graphics, all models before the Pacemakers, have flat wooden boards. Not what you need.

Manual? Use the link in post #12 above to find one.

Ai Print · May 22, 2020

I had a couple of Dayi backs.

They work well enough but are heavy. So I now use a couple of Horseman 6x12 backs with my Chamonix and with a trio of super light 90, 135 and 200mm lenses can practically trail run at high elevations with this setup. I know you said inexpensive but when it comes to light weight and quality results, you just gotta pony up.

Tom Kershaw · May 22, 2020

Ai Print said:
I had a couple of Dayi backs.

They work well enough but are heavy. So I now use a couple of Horseman 6x12 backs with my Chamonix and with a trio of super light 90, 135 and 200mm lenses can practically trail run at high elevations with this setup. I know you said inexpensive but when it comes to light weight and quality results, you just gotta pony up.

Do you have any experience with this camera: https://www.bhcamera.us/dayi612.php ?

wjlapier · May 22, 2020

Dan, thank you for the info and guide to the manual. I'm hoping the bellows are in good shape but if not, any idea how hard or easy it is to replace? And a good source for them?

Dan Fromm · May 22, 2020

wjlapier said:
Dan, thank you for the info and guide to the manual. I'm hoping the bellows are in good shape but if not, any idea how hard or easy it is to replace? And a good source for them?

Removal? Separating the front bellows frame from the standard is easy, there are four screws with conical nuts and, IIRC, washers. The washers are easy to misplace.

The rear bellows frame is held to the body by, IIRC, four folded metal tabs. These have to be bent back to remove the frame, then rebent to reattach it.

No source, sorry. I'd try Camerabellows. I've bought a couple of used Pacemaker Graphic bellows with frames from sellers on eBay. All of them had broken tabs, were unusable.

The link I posted in post #12 above will take you to links to Graphic repair manuals.

wjlapier · May 27, 2020

Thanks again for the info on the Crown Graphic. It arrived today and so far it is really a nice camera. No lens board yet--on it's way. Everything else looks fine. Tonight I'll try to inspect the bellows but for now they look very clean and no rips or tears I can see. Very light camera! I can see this thing in my backpack in Montana this summer. Maybe on one of my fly fishing trips.

wjlapier · May 28, 2020

Pin holes. Bummer. But I will look into patching the bellows.

Bob S · May 28, 2020

wjlapier said:
Pin holes. Bummer. But I will look into patching the bellows.

Don’t waste time and money trying to patch pinholes. More will come up and then you will ruin film and time.
Get a replacement bellows.

BradS · May 28, 2020

Dan Fromm said:
OP, the 4x5 Crown Graphic's minimum extension is 52.4 mm. Might not be to your taste, but it is an option. I thought very hard about getting one when I was looking at going 6x12. I did something else because I wanted to use lenses much shorter than 65 mm.

A 65mm lens on a 4x5 Crown Graphic would be...interesting. The front standard would have to be all the way back in the 'house', or nearly so and it seems like, even with the bed dropped, it would be in the field of view but maybe, the 6x12 view is sufficiently 'short' that it would not. I'd be curious to know. I've seen an example of a Crown Graphic with a 65mm - the bed was hacked off with a saw...but, that is reprehensible.

Seems like a Fotoman PS45 with the appropriate lens cone would be just about perfect for the task....but certainly not inexpensive.

Dan Fromm · May 28, 2020

BradS said:
A 65mm lens on a 4x5 Crown Graphic would be...interesting. The front standard would have to be all the way back in the 'house', or nearly so and it seems like, even with the bed dropped, it would be in the field of view but maybe, the 6x12 view is sufficiently 'short' that it would not. I'd be curious to know. I've seen an example of a Crown Graphic with a 65mm - the bed was hacked off with a saw...but, that is reprehensible.

Seems like a Fotoman PS45 with the appropriate lens cone would be just about perfect for the task....but certainly not inexpensive.

A 4x5 Crown's bed, dropped, won't be in a 65's field of view when shooting 4x5.

Re hacked bed, that makes no sense at all. You may be thinking of a camera Ian Grant, who posts here, made from an ancient scrap Speed Graphic. He's posted images of it.

Re your Fotoman suggestion, lens cones are expensive, Graphic boards aren't.

wjlapier · Jun 12, 2020

New bellows arrived and I started the install yesterday--arrived in about a week. The rear was easy enough but I'm still not sure about the front. I thought I read somewhere that someone used double sided tape. Is this the way it should be done, and if so, any suggestion to type and brand?

Dan Fromm · Jun 12, 2020

FWIW, I have one of my spare 2x3 Pacemaker Graphic bellows in front of me. Their front frame has slots, like yours. Those little hex headed nuts that can be seen in your lower picture retain them. The screws on the front of the standard that hold the lens board sliders go into the nuts.

Unscrew the screws and remove the washers that go between them, the sliders and the front of the standard. Keep track of the washers, the outer ones are not the same size as the inners. Remove the front bellows frame from the rear of the standard. Don't lose the conical nuts, they're easy to drop ...

The front of my little bellows is cemented to the rear of the front bellows frame. You can use a good grade of contact cement, perhaps Pliobond, to attach the front of your new bellows to the front bellows frame.

After the cement has set, reassemble.

Inexpensive 4x5 for 6x12

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