Increasing grain?

Hey,

I usually process LF sheets (5x7) of HP5 or Tri-X in Xtol (1:1) or F76+ (1:9).

For a standard enlargement (16x20) I'd equate the grain to 600grit wet/dry sandpaper. (8x10 contact print would be 2000 grit and 35mm tri-x pushed to 3200 would be ≤ 80 grit... get what I'm sayin?)

I'd like to increase the grain a bit... lets say the equiv of 320 or 400 grit sandpaper.


I totally understand that this goes against the whole LF idea but I think it might work with some images I'm making. So what developers should I try out and what dilutions?

LF forum suggested rodinal. Any other suggestions?

Use a print developer such as D-72 at dilutions up to 1+9. The more concentrated the developer the larger the grain. But you won't see too much grain in LF. A better choice would be 35mm.

Fx-16, although involves the use of glycin, a relative of the high acutance fx-2, by geoff crawley. But if you want grain LF is not your beach, try 35mm as advised.

You could try a coarser film, like Fomapan 400. And a non-solvent developer like Rodinal. Maybe over-develop it to get a bit more.

1) Even HP5 at 5X7 (@ < 400) will make pretty much grain–less prints at 16X20, with the possible exception of uniform gray areas (i.e., clear skies). Try pushing, it a couple of stops up, to say 1600 or better.

2) XTOL is a fairly fine grain developer, as is. Increase development temperature, generally. Give Rodinal a try.

3) Use a faster film, if they exist for 5X7, or try TXP.

There's no faster film for 5x7 unfortunately. I know I'm asking a weird thing. I'll try pushing it. Maybe rodinal with a low dilution. Thanks kindly.

Xtol 1+3. D76 1+2. However Rodinal should be the winner.

Actually Rodinal seems to have a relationship between grain size and dev temp, hence the usual recommendation to run it at 18C for finer grain. You could try developing at about 25C.

Rodinal at lower dilutions, maybe even dektol paper developer. Higher temp less time.

You can even try making dupes with grainy images on grainier film and accutance boosting developers. And just repeating to get images with bigger and bigger clumps.

Gerald C Koch said:

Use a print developer such as D-72 at dilutions up to 1+9. The more concentrated the developer the larger the grain. But you won't see too much grain in LF. A better choice would be 35mm.

Click to expand...

What's interesting is that D72 - Dektol is now sold as a print developer but it started life as one of Kodaks packaged negative developers for plates and films. Later Kodak (in the US) began recommending it as a print developer as well but they sold D163 in the UK as the main print (and universal) developer.

D163 gives much coarser grain than D72 so might be a better option. There was a thread a year or so ago where the OP found he didn't get a noticable increase in grain with D72, part of this is due to the inherrent fine grain of many modern films.

Geoffrey Crawley devised FX16 for maximum grain effects with faster films. but a simple acutance developer may work just as well.

Ian

Newt_on_Swings said:

Rodinal at lower dilutions, maybe even dektol paper developer. Higher temp less time.

You can even try making dupes with grainy images on grainier film and accutance boosting developers. And just repeating to get images with bigger and bigger clumps.

Click to expand...

Temperature itself doesn't increase the grain size of a film, other factors come into paly with Rodinal.

Ian

false_Aesthetic said:

There's no faster film for 5x7 unfortunately. I know I'm asking a weird thing. I'll try pushing it. Maybe rodinal with a low dilution. Thanks kindly.

Click to expand...

Faster maybe not, but coarser grained, probably. Try Fomapan 400. Not exactly coarse grained but not as fine grained as most modern films including Tri-X and HP5.

Roger Cole said:

Faster maybe not, but coarser grained, probably. Try Fomapan 400. Not exactly coarse grained but not as fine grained as most modern films including Tri-X and HP5.

Click to expand...

Indeed, Fomapan 400 and other Eastern Euopean films offered by Freestyle, even 200 ASA varieties may be coarser grained than "medium grain" HP5. My recollection of Bergger BPF 200 (French) and its Freestyle house doppelgänger (Arista EDU 200?), is that they were very coarse indeed, much more so than TXP or HP5. I still have an opened box of 5X7 BPF in the fridge, which would certainly be my go to if I were seeking a very fine film, with large grain characteristics, probably pyro'ed.


...4) If laboratory convention doesn't serve, why not take the pic with a larger than necessary lens and crop. I have done this (Extreme Cropping) with TXP. By cropping what amounted to a 645 out a 5X7, for aesthetic reasons, I reached the maximum enlargement for that film that I was personally satisfied with. Grain became quite prominent at 16X20, the maximum enlargement my normal fine–grained sensibilities would allow. But be careful. If your intent is to crop in the first place, enlargements of smaller portions of the negative, or cropping of the full negative at great enlargement may also soften the print. It would probably be a good idea, unless softening is something you also desire, to use a high accutance developer to attempt to ameliorate any such effect (like Rodinal or pyro).


On another note, which still applies to the OP's question, I am a firm believer in sharing on these forums. Why not post back here with your methods and results so that all who helped you (or tried) and anyone searching in the future, might also benefit from your empirical findings – that is unless this was merely another academic question whose primary aesthetic is false.

You can always make a grain mask to sandwich with your LF negatives. Howver, I don't know just how realistic this would be. One doesn't really consider grain with LF negatives.

Depending on the look you want, lith printing may be a good alternative.....generate the grain in the printing process instead of the film. With that size negs, it is hard to imagine much grain regardless of developer or film. Inducing reticulation through ph and/or temp change would be another alternative...not the same as grain, but may work for the look you want.

I would copy the 4x5 negative to another (I like HP5 Plus) and dev that in D76 then enlarge that. It could help get some larger grain. But it would have helped to shoot 35mm in the first place as others have said.