Inconsistent yellow stain on negatives

markaudacity · Jul 22, 2017

I've been chasing this problem for a while. Occasionally, my negatives will come out with either a yellowish cast all over, or yellowish blotches, similar to the type of pattern you might see with light leaks, but not corresponding to any structure of camera film chamber or developing reel.

There is no pattern I can discern to when the yellow shows up. Re-fixing does not clear the yellowing

I had one roll that had yellowing corresponding with matte/opaque emulsion only in the sprockets, and I determined through research here and elsewhere that it was due to incompletely rinsed reels that still had some fixer on them (fixer in the developer).

I do clearing tests before I fix (in Kodak Rapid Fixer) every time: clearing times range from 80 seconds to 130 seconds; clearly the fixer is still good.

The following have been consistent across all rolls stricken by the yellow:
- film format (35mm)
- developer (HC-110, usually dilution B, mixed from concentrate with distilled water)
- stop (Kodak indicator)
- fixer (Kodak rapid)
- hypo clear (sodium sulfite)
- agitation and wash regimens

All of the following have varied, with no one factor seeming to be associated with all instances of yellowing:
- emulsions (Tri-X, TMX, TMY, TMY2)
- developing tanks (Paterson, Jobo daylight-loading, Nikon steel)
- cameras
- exposure indices
- developing temperatures
- developing times

It has not yet happened with a roll of 120, but I develop at least ten rolls of 135 for every roll of 120, so that could be simple law of averages.

What the heck, y'all?

Sirius Glass · Jul 22, 2017

However long it takes to clear the film in fixer, double that time in fixer. If there is still uncleared areas on the sprocket holes increase the time. Still a problem, mix now fixer.

Pat Erson · Jul 23, 2017

Sirius Glass said:
Still a problem, mix new fixer.

Still a problem, buy some fresh fix!
The one time I had yellow/brown stains was when some "expert" (he had done some prints for Helmut Newton in the 80's) basically ordered me to fix my negs with a 1+9 dilution (instead of the usual 1+4 mix). "Your negs will look much better".

Of course my negs didn't look better and they were ill-fixed despite the extended fixing time (10 minutes irrc).

In short yellow/brown stains = improper fixing.

markaudacity · Aug 9, 2017

Still chasing this problem. I thought improper fixing, too, so I went to split fixing (5:00 in first fix, 5:00 in second fix). Developed five good rolls, then today: again with the brownish stain. This time with Tmax 400 in 120. The edges where the film was held by the reel are largely clear, with some areas of stain that correspond exactly with the spokes of the developing reel.
Threw it back in the fix for another five minutes, and it's still got the stain.

The fixer I used was mixed fresh four rolls/three weeks ago, and it sits in a dim closet at 72F all the time. There's no way it's exhausted.

I don't get it, y'all. This is getting really frustrating.

Nodda Duma · Aug 9, 2017

Could be oxidized chemicals in the HC-110 staining the emulsion, or the tint of the acid stop bath (maybe but doubtful).

Try changing one of those at a time. Be scientific. Develop a roll with nothing changed, then develop a roll with a water stop rinse instead of the acid stop.

Do the same for HC-110 and its powder counterpart D-76 (which is clear).

I'd be interested to know the results..I sometimes get the same with plates using the same chemicals you do. I suspect it's the (slightly old) dev. I know it's not the fixer because I can watch the plate fix under the safe light.

canuhead · Aug 9, 2017

a photo of the stains might help as I'm trying to understand what the problem cld be if you think fix is not the problem.

Sirius Glass · Aug 9, 2017

I hope that the OP's goal is not to get consistent yellow stains.

markaudacity · Aug 10, 2017

Sirius Glass said:
I hope that the OP's goal is not to get consistent yellow stains.

Haha, no it isn't.

Well, I did a clearing test with a couple snips of 35 leader. 5:20 to clear Tri-X, almost nine minutes (!) to clear TMY2. So I currently have bad fix, at the very least.
This is regular Kodak Fixer from powder, and I'm wondering if maybe the bag got moisture in it before I opened it. It was a little clumpy, but I'd never used the powdered fixer before (they were out of the liquid last time I bought fixer), so I thought maybe that's just how it is.

What mystifies me is that sometimes this batch of fixer has been able to completely fix both cubic and tab-grain films, and that sometimes the last batch was able to clear completely as well.
If it had been happening every roll, or gradually getting worse with each roll, I would have immediately thought bad fix and thrown it out.

Ordering new Kodak Rapid Fixer today, will follow up with results once it arrives. Until then it looks like developing B&W is on hold!

Pat Erson · Aug 10, 2017

markaudacity said:
Haha, no it isn't.

This is regular Kodak Fixer from powder

The only time I had fixing problems was when I bought Kodak fixer (liquid not powder). With Ilford or Tetenal liquid stuff never had one problem.
If you still encounter this staining problem try another brand.

MattKing · Aug 10, 2017

Any problem with fixer is like as not due to the condition of the container as it is due to the contents.
The Kodak powder fixer is a hardening, non-rapid fixer.
The Kodak rapid fixer does not require that you add the hardener.
I use the hardener when I tone prints - win-win.

winger · Aug 10, 2017

Since it's the powdered version, did you make the whole bag's worth at once or separate batches from the one bag? What's in the bag is not as homogenous as it may look.

charlemagne · Aug 11, 2017

For tmax films (and the like) you'll need a strong fixer like the kodak liquid rapid. Kodak powder fixer is a good product and suitable for all other type films and for papers.

The one time i had yellow/brown stains was with old film. Are the films that you are using expired or could they have been stored badly?

brazile · Aug 19, 2017

I've seen this with plates and aging fixer; contra Jason, I couldn't see the staining under the safe lights -- only saw them when I brought the plates out in the light to wash.

Robert

TerryMcC · Aug 19, 2017

Is this what causes yellow snow patches?

piu58 · Aug 29, 2017

The TMX filmes contain Iodide, which needs a much longer time for fixing. If your fix is nott too strong and not fresh the fixing time may be increase to 15 minutes or more.

I recommend:
- using the fixer in the strongest solution, normally 1+4
- checking the clearing time und use the double of it.

MattKing · Aug 29, 2017

piu58 said:
I recommend:
- using the fixer in the strongest solution, normally 1+4
- checking the clearing time und use the double of it.

The Kodak Rapid Fixer is intended to be used at a 1 + 3 dilution for film and plates.
With T-Max films, tripling the clearing time is recommended by many.

titrisol · Aug 30, 2017

5:00 to clear TriX?
It normally takes me 1:00 - 1:30 with Ilford Fixer.
Get new fixer and refix your old film rolls

markaudacity said:
Haha, no it isn't.

Well, I did a clearing test with a couple snips of 35 leader. 5:20 to clear Tri-X, almost nine minutes (!) to clear TMY2. So I currently have bad fix, at the very least.
-snip - snip - snip -

Ordering new Kodak Rapid Fixer today, will follow up with results once it arrives. Until then it looks like developing B&W is on hold!

Doremus Scudder · Aug 31, 2017

Let's clarify:

Conventional sodium-thiosulfate-based (hypo) fixers like Kodak powdered fixer takes a lot longer to fix film, especially tabular-grain film, than rapid fixers, which are ammonium-thiosulfate-based. Kodak really only recommends Rapid Fixer for 3-5 minutes for their T-Max films, and states that if you must use a conventional fixer, 5-10 minutes will be needed (for fresh fix). However, with used fixer, 15 minutes or more may be needed in conventional fixers to fix T-Max films. Even then, they may not be optimally fixed, since the silver iodide in the emulsion is rather difficult to fix with conventional fixers, especially after they've lost some of their activity.

A better practice for these films is to use a rapid fixer and fix at 3x the clearing time. I usually fix even longer than that, up to six minutes, in order to get rid of the pink sensitizing dyes in many films. FWIW, overfixing film slightly is good insurance and not nearly enough to bleach the image and recommended by many. It also does not affect wash times, since the film base does not absorb chemicals.

Back to the stains: If refixing for an adequate time in fresh rapid fixer does not remove the stains, it doesn't mean that they were not caused by inadequate fixing, just that they are now more or less permanent. However, they could be from something else entirely; contamination, improper storage, or even a defect. These things are often hard to track down, but cleaning up and being careful with your processing workflow will likely solve the problem.

Best,

Doremus

Inconsistent yellow stain on negatives

markaudacity

Sirius Glass

Pat Erson

markaudacity

Nodda Duma

canuhead

Sirius Glass

markaudacity

Pat Erson

MattKing

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winger

charlemagne

brazile

TerryMcC

piu58

MattKing

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titrisol

Doremus Scudder

Inconsistent yellow stain on negatives

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