Including the rebate...

Vaughn · Nov 5, 2022

I took a few Omega 35mm negative carriers and used a coping saw and file to enlarge the opening in them to print two or three 35mm negs together (showing part of the rebate around all of them). The students appreciated the creative possibilities. Used on the D5-XLs with a 135mm lens.

Even without printing the rebate, using 'full-frame' carriers gives one a little more control of the edges of the image by using the easel blades to crop instead of the carrier..

DREW WILEY · Nov 5, 2022

Sure I'm aware of Avedon doing it. He was the High Priest of Corny in the 60's, as pretentious and gimmicky as they came, at least for a photographer. But several of you are still missing the point.
A regular rectangular border, whether black or white is one thing; a jaggedly filed enlarger carrier or easel blade system is something else. And I have a perfect right to call that corny if I want to.

As far as a Tri-X notch imprint on the edge of a color image - it could have been a contrast mask. It probably wasn't anything deliberately creative or artsy.

Don_ih · Nov 5, 2022

DREW WILEY said:
As far as a Tri-X notch imprint on the edge of a color image - it could have been a contrast mask. It probably wasn't anything deliberately creative or artsy.

No, you see that online often. Colour photos with hp5+ and numbers on the edge, or tri-x, or whatever. It's something people do deliberately - usually to digital photos.

DREW WILEY · Nov 5, 2022

Hi Don - yeah, everything silly is on steroids once digital manipulation gets factored in. But I gotta chime out from this pie fight and take advantage of a break in the weather while I can, and walk the 8x10.

faberryman · Nov 5, 2022

DREW WILEY said:
And I have a perfect right to call that corny if I want to.

No one has said otherwise.

Vaughn · Nov 5, 2022

DREW WILEY said:
Hi Don - yeah, everything silly is on steroids once digital manipulation gets factored in. But I gotta chime out from this pie fight and take advantage of a break in the weather while I can, and walk the 8x10.

And I've waited for the rain to pass by -- driving up to the redwoods with the 5x7 and the bicycle. They close the road thru the redwoods to cars on the first Saturday of the month. Time to load up the van!

DREW WILEY · Nov 5, 2022

Heavy overcast, troublesome wind, but I still bagged one color 8x10 and one B&W. Interesting day. Spotted an amazing plowing pattern on the hillside of an inland farm valley and set up along the fence. A fellow came up fast on his side of the fence on an ATV. You never know what someone is thinking. But he was absolutely thrilled I was photographing his property and plow pattern, and invited me to come back anytime I wanted, especially in Spring when the wildflowers would follow those same plow lines. Then he told me which oak tree along his creek to look for bobcats, and then showed me a cellphone shot of bobcat kittens in that tree. Never saw them myself, but do have that lovely big Valley oak at one edge of the composition.

Wish I could make it around the horn into the Owens Valley after the deep snowfall the next few days for some shots of the peaks... but the current gas prices sure make me think twice. It's down about fifty cents from last week, but still hovering around $4.50. So I might stay closer to home. The lovely warm neutral golds and greiges of the drought won't last long now; but the first greening will add just a bit on color spice if I time it right. I ration 8x10 color film very tightly since it will be so expensive to replace once I do run out. I reserve my redwood forays for distinctly rainy days - just seems to add a little more magic; and I've got a Goretex darkcloth.

Rolleiflexible · Nov 5, 2022

DREW WILEY said:
Sure I'm aware of Avedon doing it. He was the High Priest of Corny in the 60's, as pretentious and gimmicky as they came, at least for a photographer.

Wow. Amazing dismissal of one of the great talents (and commercial successes) of the last century. I guess Henri Cartier-Bresson was a piker too then?

"But several of you are still missing the point. A regular rectangular border, whether black or white is one thing; a jaggedly filed enlarger carrier or easel blade system is something else."

To you, perhaps.

"And I have a perfect right to call that corny if I want to."

Unfortunately, yes. I now regret having looked in on Photrio again, if this is the base level to which the board has sunk. This was illuminating, though not at all educational, or pleasant.

Don_ih · Nov 5, 2022

Avedon and Cartier-Bresson had other people enlarge their images. In a way, including the edge of the frame would be almost necessary. Bresson didn't believe in cropping, so he'd want to be sure he had the whole thing. Does that mean that black line should be visible when the photo is mounted and framed? Who knows.

faberryman · Nov 5, 2022

Don Heisz said:
Bresson didn't believe in cropping, so he'd want to be sure he had the whole thing.

If you review the Magnum book Contact Sheets, you'll note that HCB did crop. Perhaps the contact sheet shown was an exception.

DREW WILEY · Nov 5, 2022

When did I diss Avedon? I didn't even know him, so how could I dislike him? He might have been a swell guy. But it's no secret his commercial success was based on a business card or paint palette - whatever you want to call it - of deliberate clever over-the-top ostentation, even to the point of obnoxious offensiveness, visually. He even sought out and relished the crazy excesses of 60's fashion runways, and infamously made deliberately repugnant portraits of famous sitters. Exploiting artsy corniness was his career niche. He knew what he was doing, and plainly explained it himself numerous times. He often ridiculed that whole 60's ethos himself, but obviously wanted to record it for posterity. It doesn't appeal to me, but I acknowledge its influence.

Probably these comments would be better suited for the Photographer or Esthetics section. But there's nothing "base" about it. That's in your own imagination. And there's no need to run away from Photrio because people have opinions about other photographer's work. That's just the way it works. For every sacred cow out there, somebody has charcoal heating up on the BBQ. Believe me, some of the museum gurus and critique gods can be far harsher in person than me. I don't use their kind of language on anyone. And by crossing over the threshold from gotcha-style Ad photography to Art, while retaining his over-the-top career persona, a certain amount of backlash to Avedon was inevitable, especial from a sensitive visual poet like Kertesz, who I personally feel way more affinity with. That's just art history at this point, like it or not. But if you're disappointed with all this investment in discussion, you could ask for a rebate.

warden · Nov 5, 2022

Rolleiflexible said:
Wow. Amazing dismissal of one of the great talents (and commercial successes) of the last century. I guess Henri Cartier-Bresson was a piker too then?

"But several of you are still missing the point. A regular rectangular border, whether black or white is one thing; a jaggedly filed enlarger carrier or easel blade system is something else."

To you, perhaps.

"And I have a perfect right to call that corny if I want to."

Unfortunately, yes. I now regret having looked in on Photrio again, if this is the base level to which the board has sunk. This was illuminating, though not at all educational, or pleasant.

Drew won’t see my post, the poor dear, because I’m apparently on his ignore list, but don’t leave because of him. This place is better than any one participant. I hope you’ll stick around.

lxdude · Nov 6, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
I like the photographs posted on internet with a Tri-X 400 rebate with a color image and an Kodachrome 64 rebate with a black & white image.

Yep!

MattKing · Nov 6, 2022

Rolleiflexible said:
Wow. Amazing dismissal of one of the great talents (and commercial successes) of the last century. I guess Henri Cartier-Bresson was a piker too then?

"But several of you are still missing the point. A regular rectangular border, whether black or white is one thing; a jaggedly filed enlarger carrier or easel blade system is something else."

To you, perhaps.

"And I have a perfect right to call that corny if I want to."

Unfortunately, yes. I now regret having looked in on Photrio again, if this is the base level to which the board has sunk. This was illuminating, though not at all educational, or pleasant.

Sanders,
There are people on Photrio who you (and probably others) will disagree with - sometimes consistently.
With an open access discussion resource, that is what happens. One does sometimes need to filter through the posts.
Thankfully, there is a wide response to questions, and often a nice variety of useful information.
If there is someone whose content is consistently irritating to you, the "ignore" function is handy.
If someone is rude, intentionally disruptive for disruption's sake, or is otherwise in breach of the community's rules, please use the Report function to notify us.

Don_ih · Nov 6, 2022

warden said:
I’m apparently on his ignore list

I thought he meant faberryman was on his ignore list.

faberryman said:
If you review the Magnum book Contact Sheets, you'll note that HCB did crop. Perhaps the contact sheet shown was an exception.

Interviewer: You’ve been known for never cropping your photos. Do you want to say anything about that?
HCB: About cropping? Uh, I said in that forward, we have to have a feeling for the geometry of the relation of shapes, like in any plastic medium. And I think that you place yourself in time, we’re dealing with time, and with space. Just like you pick a right moment in an expression, you pick your right spot, also. I will get closer, or further, there’s an emphasis on the subject, and if the relations, the interplay of lines is correct, well, it is there. If it’s not correct it’s not by cropping in the darkroom and making all sorts of tricks that you improve it. If a picture is mediocre, well it remains mediocre. The thing is done, once for all.
-- from here.

You'll note he doesn't actually say there that he never crops a photo - just that it won't improve a bad one. Meanwhile, a photo is itself a crop. His basic claim was that he took the best possible photos - there was no way to improve whatever he chose while looking through the viewfinder. I guess 24x36 is the best possible ratio, also.

faberryman · Nov 6, 2022

Don Heisz said:
Interviewer: You’ve been known for never cropping your photos. Do you want to say anything about that?
HCB: About cropping? Uh, I said in that forward, we have to have a feeling for the geometry of the relation of shapes, like in any plastic medium. And I think that you place yourself in time, we’re dealing with time, and with space. Just like you pick a right moment in an expression, you pick your right spot, also. I will get closer, or further, there’s an emphasis on the subject, and if the relations, the interplay of lines is correct, well, it is there. If it’s not correct it’s not by cropping in the darkroom and making all sorts of tricks that you improve it. If a picture is mediocre, well it remains mediocre. The thing is done, once for all.
-- from here.

You'll note he doesn't actually say there that he never crops a photo - just that it won't improve a bad one. Meanwhile, a photo is itself a crop. His basic claim was that he took the best possible photos - there was no way to improve whatever he chose while looking through the viewfinder. I guess 24x36 is the best possible ratio, also.

On the HCB contact sheet I looked at, he shot a roll of film of the same subject from different angles and with different framing, so obviously there were ways to improve the image. For the one he selected to have printed there were grease pen markings showing the crop. The idea that HCB took one shot and it was perfect is a carefully cultivated myth. By the way, I am in awe of much of HCBs work, so this is not intended to be a diss of him.

Don_ih · Nov 6, 2022

faberryman said:
On the HCB contact sheet I looked at, he shot a roll of film of the same subject from different angles and with different framing, so obviously there were ways to improve the image. For the one he selected to have printed there were grease pen markings showing the crop. The idea that HCB took one shot and it was perfect is a carefully cultivated myth. By the way, I am in awe of much of HCBs work, so this is not intended to be a diss of him.

I wasn't suggesting he was perfect - just that he claimed he was perfect.

Now the guy who does take one shot is Eggleston.

Rolleiflexible · Nov 6, 2022

Don Heisz said:
Meanwhile, a photo is itself a crop.

Exactly.

People tie themselves up in knots over rules. Film, or digital? Crop, no crop? Retouched, or WYSIWYG? Glossy, or matte? Color, or B+W? Borders, printed or omitted? And even, now: Smooth borders, or ragged borders? OMFG.

In the end, there is an image -- hopefully, a print -- and the only thing that matters is: Does it somehow distill order from chaos? Because in the end, we are all trying to make sense of the unmediated world around us, and a photograph is a cropped, ordered sample of the world as the photographer once encountered it.

We all sit in our silos and hate those sitting in all the other silos. What has become of us?

warden · Nov 6, 2022

Don Heisz said:
I wasn't suggesting he was perfect - just that he claimed he was perfect.

Now the guy who does take one shot is Eggleston.

Eggleston and HCB are wired up differently somehow, and perfectly built to do exactly what they did. I have a lot of respect for both of them, different as they are.

ic-racer · Nov 6, 2022

The dark border provided by the clear rebate serves as a frame for the image. Do all images need the same frame? My initial post indicated that for me, yes, all images need the same frame, except for the exception.

Same with other image frames. For example, in 1986, all my images were framed with Nielsen #11 in chrome....except for the exceptions.
Whereas these days, I print most images intending the white surround of paper to be the frame.

DREW WILEY · Nov 6, 2022

Different strokes for different folks. Every one of my prints ever in an actual gallery or public exhibition was framed with respect to what was best visually for that specific image. Very large prints obviously needed stronger stiffer mouldings than small prints. I did have on hand lengths of no. 11 Nielsen in silver, white, and contrast gray; but those were too small and shallow for much of my work. Overall, I kept on hand maybe ten different Nielsen profiles in different finishes, plus about a dozen different hardwood profiles. I still have a pretty good variety of moulding profiles in stock, and am capable of custom shaping others, and have all the necessary shop machinery, cutting equipment, and various mounting presses requisite to a full commercial frame shop, even though I've slowed down quite a bit now. It's been fun.

Sorry to disappoint your stereotype of me, Rollei; but I have dozens of "silos" in my background. I can hardly remember how many kinds of papers I've printed on, or how many kinds of board I've mounted on. Right beside me right now I've got lovely old albumen and cyanotype contact prints with multiple borders, a number of four-foot of wide prints of my own handled in a completely different manner, no two the same. Some of my custom presentation albums have black-bordered prints, white-bordered, along with no-bordered. Same with framed prints on my own walls. I've done true hermetic encapsulation framing, and have both advised and sold specialized equipment and supplies (millions of dollars worth) to major museum display facilities as well as the biggest wholesale framers in the area, who could charge up to $40, 000 for a single huge frame;
major artists too. Add to that all the customized things I've done for clients both print-wise and per custom framing, and I might be one of the least narrow-minded practitioners of photo presentation out there.

weasel · Nov 7, 2022

I guess im just simple minded, but if I want a black border on a print I just do it when I matt it.

DREW WILEY · Nov 7, 2022

Black mats with a white core can make a lovely edge. I did that a lot with Cibachome prints, which have a black rather than white easel border. But one problem with cropping the image area itself with a cut mat edge is that it can rub or burnish the emulsion surface over time due to humidity related expansion and extraction cycles. So the sharp edge of the window due should be relieved a little by a gentle pass with a simple "burnishing bone", sold by framing and art conservation supplies dealers. Still, if you can keep the edge of the window mat completely outside the image area itself, that's even better.

MTGseattle · Nov 9, 2022

I recently picked up a copy of The Grey Ghost by photographer Dan Winters. Every image has a nice thin, crisp black border. I only think it stood out for me due to this thread. I've paged through the book a couple of times now, and I don't think it detracts from any image, but it only truly helps 3 or 4 of them.

Bill Burk · Nov 20, 2022

I never know whether I've already said it in a particular thread about cropping or black borders.

So I'll say it again: Save yourself, it's too late for me.

I use the black border and intentionally cut negative carriers with secret marks that tell me what carrier I used and when the print was made. This can sometimes often tell me the camera as well since the gate of cameras vary. I rely on this information when I tell stories about pictures that I show people.

Technically, the black border degrades the print because the white flood of light reduces contrast at the easel.

You miss out on the opportunity for a specific creative control called "flashing". This is where you shine light on edges of the print to make them black to hide unwanted details (like a light stand that got in the portrait). You can't do that kind of flashing.

Including the rebate...

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