In Praise of Clockwork mechanisms

flavio81 · Jul 21, 2016

I agree with both of you guys; i was targeting fear of cameras like the Nikon FE, EL or Canon A1, where electronics perform a simple function, versus cameras like an EOS 1. I agree replacing the EOS 1's "brain" wouldnt be an easy task at all.

BTW, i was checking the ICs used on my Canon EF and the IC for the photometer is apparently a stock Toshiba IC , although a rather obscure one - what a relief!

AgX · Jul 22, 2016

You are lucky with your EF: from the AE-1 on everything changed though.

seezee · Jun 23, 2017

MartinCrabtree said:
Cool. How do they work?

You expose the light sensitive paper, note how many seconds until it turns the prescribed tint (luminosity), then consult the "speed" card to calculate your exposure. The meter body revolves around the face to calculate various aperture/speed combination.

I just read that one of these accompanied Scott on his famous Antarctic expedition (1910)!

jscott · Jun 23, 2017

I don't care for autofocus, but a power winder can be nice. I laugh every time I use my Hassy EL/M, 10 yrs on the Moon commemorative model. Slap, grunt, chunk.... So over the top...

Arklatexian · Jun 23, 2017

Sirius Glass said:
I prefer cameras that only use batteries for light meters.[/QUO

Sirius Glass said:

I prefer cameras that only use batteries for light meters.

Click to expand...

Why Sirius Glass, you, like I, must be a Luddite. I have been trying for years to be considered one and at last it seems I have reached that goal. I only have one film camera with a built-in battery. I do have several hand-held meters, one of which has a selenium cell and no battery. If I wanted to be with the "IN" crowd, I would take pictures with my cell phone....Regards!

film_man · Jun 24, 2017

I'd be curious to know how many people here have actually experienced, themselves, on equipment they own, electronic and mechanical failure in their cameras. I have yet to experience an electronic camera die. I have had more than one mechanical failures though.

David Lyga · Jun 24, 2017

When I buy a Minolta electronic (X series) I anticipate, hope, fear ... Usually, I am delighted but there is always that doubt. When I buy an SR-T or SR-7 I usually have NO fear and, even if something is slow or wrong, chances are that I can take care of it.

Clockwork might not be definitively as accurate as the electronics, but the sense of assurance more than makes up for that 'lack'. - David Lyga

narsuitus · Jun 24, 2017

film_man said:
I'd be curious to know how many people here have actually experienced, themselves, on equipment they own, electronic and mechanical failure in their cameras.

Interesting! Sounds like something that should be asked in a new thread.

Over the decades, I have owned and used a variety of manual/mechanical cameras as well as a variety of automatic/electronic cameras. Thus far, I have experienced two mechanical failures and three electronic failures.

ic-racer · Jun 24, 2017

cliveh said:
Are batteries in cameras really necessary? when clockwork mechanisms will do the job.

Yes, when the clockwork has only a single speed and the rest are electronically controlled. Another odd example is the Horseman, where the shutter is fully clockwork, but the release mechanism solenoid is electronic.

Dead Link Removed

E. von Hoegh · Jun 24, 2017

In Praise of Clockwork mechanisms

Except for cuckoo clocks.
There's a little known circle of hell for miscreant clockmakers. It's full of broken cuckoo clocks that, no matter how much one works on them, never ever run correctly, but do run well enough to drive one bat$hit crazy.

trondsi · Jun 24, 2017

I enjoy my mechanical "clockworks" cameras, such as my Nikkormat FTn, and I use these most of the time. But I also have a super-fast Minolta Alpha 9, and I have to say that I think it is much better at certain things, such as capturing photos of birds.

trondsi · Jun 24, 2017

By the way, it's quite impressive what the clockworks cameras can do: they give the correct shutter speed (and all the things that happen as the shutter is firing), provide self-timers, and make sure that you don't double expose the film. I am just wondering; are there any mechanical cameras that can do more than this? For instance, I could imagine something like a wound-up motor drive, but I have never heard of it

E. von Hoegh · Jun 24, 2017

trondsi said:
By the way, it's quite impressive what the clockworks cameras can do: they give the correct shutter speed (and all the things that happen as the shutter is firing), provide self-timers, and make sure that you don't double expose the film. I am just wondering; are there any mechanical cameras that can do more than this? For instance, I could imagine something like a wound-up motor drive, but I have never heard of it

Spring motor drive: http://camerapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Leningrad

http://camerapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Canon_Dial_35

Les Sarile · Jun 24, 2017

dale116dot7 said:
I find cameras more complex than an OM4 to be too hard to even think about redesigning a fix. I'm more familiar with the OM series than any other camera, but I imagine other brands have similar technology levels.

Casual observation on my part but I believe the OM4 - as well as the other OTF metering cameras, would be a bit more complex to program as they require shorter timing windows then all the other manual wind cameras that meter in a straightforward manner.

I haven't begun disassembling cameras just yet, but from what I believe I know of the electronics in the manual wind cameras, I don't believe they could be "blown" simply due to the very limited power used. Most likely connections or solder points deteriorate or become loose.

I believe it would be simple enough to interface a microcontroller to a manual wind autoexposure capable camera since the electronic controls are already there. Sounds like a fun project.

Truzi · Jun 24, 2017

trondsi said:
By the way, it's quite impressive what the clockworks cameras can do: they give the correct shutter speed (and all the things that happen as the shutter is firing), provide self-timers, and make sure that you don't double expose the film. I am just wondering; are there any mechanical cameras that can do more than this? For instance, I could imagine something like a wound-up motor drive, but I have never heard of it

In addition to E. von Hoegh reply, Some Kodak Instamatics for 126 film had a clockwork advance. My father's Instamatic 414 has one. It's a cheap, simple, camera, but that was a nice feature.

Theo Sulphate · Jun 24, 2017

film_man said:
... how many people here have actually experienced, themselves, on equipment they own, electronic and mechanical failure in their cameras. ...

Within last 20 years:

Electronic failures:
--------------------------

Ricoh GR-1: failure to lock focus

Canon 500N: leftmost AF sensor dead (makes some modes unusable; I just use center AF now)

Mechanical failures:
----------------------------

Voigtländer Bessamatic: shutter jammed (this has since been repaired)

The list above reflect cameras I own that were once working correctly. There are a few mechanical cameras I've bought with known issues that I've had repaired.

trondsi · Jun 24, 2017

Truzi said:
In addition to E. von Hoegh reply, Some Kodak Instamatics for 126 film had a clockwork advance. My father's Instamatic 414 has one. It's a cheap, simple, camera, but that was a nice feature.

The moment I posted, I KNEW that someone would post that this existed.

jim10219 · Jun 24, 2017

film_man said:
I'd be curious to know how many people here have actually experienced, themselves, on equipment they own, electronic and mechanical failure in their cameras. I have yet to experience an electronic camera die. I have had more than one mechanical failures though.

My Pentax ZX50 died. The mirror flipped up, but never flipped down. It wasn't worth repairing, so I gutted the screws from it and threw it away. My Pentax Super Program has been rock solid though, even without a CLA, and it's a good bit older.

I've had quite a few large format shutters and apertures go bad on me. But those are between 50-80 years old. I've repaired most of them myself, usually by CLA or gutting another broken shutter for parts.

My general rule of thumb is to avoid electronics made after around 1995. The 80's to the early 90's were the golden age of electronics.

albada · Jun 24, 2017

jim10219 said:
My general rule of thumb is to avoid electronics made after around 1995. The 80's to the early 90's were the golden age of electronics.

Golden age? Perhaps my luck is bad, but I've never had a good X-series Minolta. Olympus OM-G and OM-PC often have inconsistent shutter-timing. OTOH, I've never had an OM-10 fail. Even CdS exposure-sensors are often weak in built-in meters. Same with Selenium cells. So my policy is to stay with mechanical-only cameras with manual exposure-control.

Mark Overton

kuparikettu · Jun 24, 2017

My OM-2 has had its share of problems, mechanical and electronical. Before I received it from my father, he had already had its shutter curtain repaired. During my watch the meter needle first stuck, then flash stopped working, and a while after having that repaired the manual mode stopped working (exposure meter as well).

So I'm now having it CLA'd and repaired. Its serial number is under 300,000 so apparently it is among the more failure prone or so I have read on some forums online...

I have also had one LF shutter get stuck.

My other cameras have worked quite well. Were my OM4-Ti electronics to fail and no spare parts to be available, I'd definitely support a kickstarter project to make replacement electronics for it

jim10219 · Jun 24, 2017

albada said:
Golden age? Perhaps my luck is bad, but I've never had a good X-series Minolta. Olympus OM-G and OM-PC often have inconsistent shutter-timing. OTOH, I've never had an OM-10 fail. Even CdS exposure-sensors are often weak in built-in meters. Same with Selenium cells. So my policy is to stay with mechanical-only cameras with manual exposure-control.

Mark Overton

Well, not everything that comes from the golden age is "golden". But with electronics in general, it's often thought that was a high water mark. Basically, it's the time period when IC's had really started to come into their own and before SMD's showed up in everything and miniaturization took off. It's especially true in industrial and high end consumer goods where corners weren't cut. Though a poorly designed circuit of any age won't last. Also, a big issue with any old electronics is dried out electrolytic capacitors and battery leakage. Both are easily fixed by someone who knows their way around a soldering iron.

Glen Diamond · Jun 25, 2017

Most cameras started off without any form of meter. Then solar powered meters (not so good in low light conditions). Most newer film cameras have built in power winders so the dependency for batteries negated the need for mechanical shutters. The "auto exposure" cameras came out and needed complex circuitry with electronic shutters providing stepless speeds. The Canon AE-1/A1/T90 and Nikon F3/F4/F5/F6 are entirely electronic cameras whereas the Canon EF (Black Beauty) has a hybrid shutter with both electronic and mechanical speeds. The EF loses the ability to auto expose without the battery and cannot do longer exposures than 1 second without battery but all manual exposures from 1 second to 1000th are possible. I suppose it's nice to know that if my batteries failed on the EF, I could resort to using the mechanical speeds.

albada · Jun 25, 2017

jim10219 said:
Well, not everything that comes from the golden age is "golden". But with electronics in general, it's often thought that was a high water mark. Basically, it's the time period when IC's had really started to come into their own and before SMD's showed up in everything and miniaturization took off. It's especially true in industrial and high end consumer goods where corners weren't cut. Though a poorly designed circuit of any age won't last. Also, a big issue with any old electronics is dried out electrolytic capacitors and battery leakage. Both are easily fixed by someone who knows their way around a soldering iron.

Actually, all the electronic SLRs I've seen made since the late 70s use SMD parts soldered directly on flex-cables. I examined the schematic for the OM-10 (G?), and it has a timing capacitor, but it's not electrolytic; it's ceramic or similar. So all you have is resistors, a couple of ceramic caps, perhaps transistors, and a couple of simple ICs. I don't see how such components could deteriorate over time, yet they have. Perhaps acid flux is eating into something? Or maybe a sharp bend in a flex-cable strains a copper trace which eventually cracks? I just don't know.

Mark Overton

Sirius Glass · Jun 25, 2017

Acid flux should never have been used on electronics, only resin core flux. That has been standard for many many decades. So that would only be an issue if the camera was repaired by a hack.

wiltw · Jun 25, 2017

Glen Diamond said:
The "auto exposure" cameras came out and needed complex circuitry with electronic shutters providing stepless speeds.

It depends upon what is meant by 'auto exposure' cameras...in the mid 60's a number of CdS metered cameras with auto exposure functionality were available, such as the Konica AutoReflex and the TTL exposure leaf-shuttered Topcon Auto 100, the leaf shuttered Contaflex Super BC, and the focal plane shuttered Konica AutoReflex T mechanical cameras

In Praise of Clockwork mechanisms

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