In Praise of Clockwork mechanisms

onre · Jul 7, 2016

That is very true indeed. Electronic shutter does not guarantee exact timing in any way. For example, in traditional focal plane shutters curtain travel times are still adjusted mechanically and if they're not what the electronics expect them to be, all times will be off, the faster ones especially. I have access to a Kyoritsu shutter tester and have seen this happen many times.

BAC1967 · Jul 7, 2016

Sirius Glass said:
They are accurate enough to provide the correct exposures. You are posting excuses. Try posting reasons.

It's getting harder to find but you can still bet Regular 8mm film. Wittner Cinetec in Germany can make it with their cutting and perforating equipment and there are some sources in the US. I'm still working on a stockpile of Ektachrome 100D.

CMoore · Jul 7, 2016

Kind of funny...the arguing...it was a loaded question to begin with.
Are batteries necessary in cars, when you have a hand crank that starts it just fine.?
Why even ask.?
If the device was designed around a battery then YES, it is necessary. Technology marches on.
The Apollo Astronauts did not go to the moon in a rocket-ship full of hundreds of vacuum tubes, but.....if you are a guitar player, your amp runs on tubes...its a niche thing, all the other players are amplifying with solid state electronics. If you are a guitar player, you do not ask all the other band members why they do not use tubes. They CAN, but what for.? Solid State is "better" for most applications most of the time.

Wallendo · Jul 7, 2016

I have a Mamiya m645 that uses a battery only for the shutter, and I really wish is had a pure mechanical shutter. I have a m645 1000s which has an electrical short, and I have to remove the batteries after every use or they will go dead overnight. This was so frustrating that I bought a plain m645 to get around that issue.

I prefer mechanical cameras (sometimes with battery meters), but there are times when autofocus really comes in handy (sporting events).

Chan Tran · Jul 7, 2016

For me I enjoy using a full mechanical camera. However when I need a dependable camera I tend to prefer the electronically controlled one.

pdeeh · Jul 7, 2016

kill me

Theo Sulphate · Jul 7, 2016

benjiboy said:
... Do you guys have clockwork ...computers ...

I do have a clockwork computer. Will post a photo when I get home.

BAC1967 said:
I have a thing for clockwork movie cameras. ...

Sweet! I like the Bolex H16 Rex 5. Yes, you can get film for it.

ciniframe said:
... Little over a year ago I obtained, for a very good price, a Minox IIIs. It is a little mechanical jewel. It is also a lot of work. ...

I'm sure you enjoy doing all that - I've taken the easy way out by buying the Minox film from Blue Moon and having them do the processing.

cliveh said:
... I'm more interested in the music of the whirrr, clicking and clack, clack clack. In fact, if I could afford to do so, I would start a museum of abstract clockwork objects and encourage designers of clockwork mechanism to make and submit their own designs, even if some had no end use or purpose, but just had interesting design, sound, tactility and function. Visitors could pick them up, wind them up and then watch and listen as they release their energy.

Someone (Mainecoonmaniac?) had a video on here about a mechanically controlled music machine - you wind it up and it uses steel balls to control various mechanisms. Another one was manually operated.

AgX · Jul 7, 2016

onre said:
That is very true indeed. Electronic shutter does not guarantee exact timing in any way. For example, in traditional focal plane shutters curtain travel times are still adjusted mechanically and if they're not what the electronics expect them to be, all times will be off, the faster ones especially. I have access to a Kyoritsu shutter tester and have seen this happen many times.

Not quite true. For instance a common old model as the AE-1 controls the delay of the second curtain electronically.
(Strange enough by timing capacitator and not by digital clock.)

But yes, that design still necessitates that the curtains travel at right speed. Which is a mechanical matter (driving-springs, friction)

BrianShaw · Jul 7, 2016

pdeeh said:
kill me

No, we like you too much to do something like that. But I know why you say such things.

bdial · Jul 7, 2016

Not a shutter, but a pretty interesting clockwork mechanism; A naval fire control computer;

onre · Jul 8, 2016

AgX said:
Not quite true. For instance a common old model as the AE-1 controls the delay of the second curtain electronically.
(Strange enough by timing capacitator and not by digital clock.)

But yes, that design still necessitates that the curtains travel at right speed. Which is a mechanical matter (driving-springs, friction)

That's what I meant by curtain travel times, as in, the time it takes for a curtain to travel from one edge of film gate to another. This is a failure mode that can be seen in both mechanical and electric cameras, in extreme cases it can cause situation where frame is not exposed at all with fastest speeds (2nd curtain much faster than 1st).

Europan · Jul 8, 2016

Mechanical driven shutters can be timed rather accurately. I have just encountered a speed-up device with a Bell & Howell Filmo Double Run Eight that should help expose the first frame as short as the following. When you repair and restore spring-drive movie cameras you cannot help but praise the number of ideas stored in them.

As an aid to memory only what films are available in the Double-8 format:

Fomapan R(eversal) 100, must be reverse processes, colourless triacetate base, from several dealers;
Orwo U(niversal) N(egative) 100, panchromatic, from Wittner Cinetec and Kahl Film;
Orwo P(ositive) F(ilm) 2, unsensitized, from Kahl;
“UT 18” and “UT 21”, from Kahl;
Agfachrome RSX-II 200 Daylight, from Wittner;
Kodak Tri-X reversal type 7266, panchro., from Dennis Toeppen;
Kodak Vision3 Negative ISO 50/250 Daylight, process ENC-2, from D. T.

The situation has changed dramatically since the introduction of the Super-8 system and the decline of Double Eight. Kodak sells unperforated stock again after about 100 years. I think still more stocks will be available in the future. Whether Kodachrome will have a comeback is an other story.

cliveh · Jul 8, 2016

bdial said:
Not a shutter, but a pretty interesting clockwork mechanism; A naval fire control computer;

What a beautiful machine.

Theo Sulphate · Jul 8, 2016

benjiboy said:
The inverse snobbery buffs and Luddites have reared their ugly heads again, for Pete's sake it's the 21st century the whole World runs on electronics. Do you guys have clockwork smartphones computers and T.V's ?

While not a stored program computer, a mechanical computing machine nonetheless. The only thing more amazing than its precise mechanical mechanisms (see link) is the story of its creator, who created this in a Nazi concentration camp.

http://www.vcalc.net/cu.htm

Then there's this. Relatively few people will know what it is:

Lastly, real clockwork:

Chan Tran · Jul 8, 2016

Theo Since you have the Kurta what other calculating devices you have in your collection?

ciniframe · Jul 8, 2016

Theo Sulphate,
No way can I afford to have Blue Moon do processing or buy Minox film from them on a regular basis. I bought two rolls of B&W from them, for $40, I just happened to be in Protland to visit a friend. Those two rolls equaled the price of the camera, $40. I also bought 3 rolls of very expired color film on e-bay for $30 and ditched the old color film. I load the carts with 24 exposure rolls of B&W from bulk 35mm for 60 cents each and do my own processing. I can make 3X5 inch prints on cut up 8x10 paper for about 25 cents each. To buy a roll of film from Blue Moon, have it processed and printed, plus shipping would run me $65 per roll. Retired on a limited income that would let me shoot one roll a year.

I have 5 cartridges that I can reload. I take extra care to make sure they stay clean. I have spent a total of about $160 on Minox but now can shoot and print what I like for ongoing expense of no more than $3 a roll.

Call me cheap.

Sirius Glass · Jul 8, 2016

Theo Sulphate said:
Then there's this. Relatively few people will know what it is:

View attachment 160280

Come on now! Please do not ham it up.

CMoore · Jul 8, 2016

Does that Omega keep time as well as a Twenty Dollar, Drug Store, digital watch.?
I am not being argumentative, the Omega is a stunning and brilliant piece of mechanical engineering....."just" asking.

NedL · Jul 8, 2016

Theo Sulphate said:
Then there's this. Relatively few people will know what it is:

Sirius Glass said:
Come on now! Please do not ham it up.

I've got a truly beautiful one here that was my grandfather's, even less "electronic" than that one... it has a weight that vibrates on a spring and the timing is purely mechanical.

Theo Sulphate · Jul 8, 2016

ciniframe said:
...
Call me cheap.

Not at all. I think it's great that you control every aspect of the process and the costs.

A bit surprised that you got the Minox for so little money, though.

Theo Sulphate · Jul 8, 2016

CMoore said:
Does that Omega keep time as well as a Twenty Dollar, Drug Store, digital watch.?
I am not being argumentative, the Omega is a stunning and brilliant piece of mechanical engineering....."just" asking.

No, it doesn't. A $10 quartz watch is far more accurate. If you read TimeZone.com, the various discussion forums, you'll see that the interest in mechanical watches, or horology in general, is all about craftsmanship.

In Seattle some years ago I attended a local gathering of TimeZone people - we all had our watches on the table, distributed among our dinner plates. One amusing comment that was made was "not a single one of us knew or cared what time it was."

With mechanical watches, the appeal and the expense is mostly in the "complications". - mechanical functions that go beyond indicating simple hour, minute, second. Things like diamonds and other bling don't mean squat to enthusiasts. For example, back in 1999 I wanted the Ulysse Nardin GMT Perpetual. Imagine a watch that not only gave you 24-hour time, but gave you a *mechanical* perpetual calendar that accounted for days of the month plus correct leap year calculations. Not only that, suppose it is Dec. 31, 1999 at 23:00 hours - with "Dec", "31", and "99" displayed in individual windows. Now press the "+" pusher once and the windows show "Jan", "01", and "00" - it's advanced properly to the next hour, day, month, and year, all mechanically. Pressing the "-" pusher undoes this. This feature is mostly for readjusting the time for DST, geographic region, or just resetting a stopped watch, but the mechanics to do a true perpetual calendar are amazing. I can write code to do that on a microprocessor easily and the watch would cost $20, but who cares? There are all sorts of complications, all sorts of internal designs, and that's what makes the hobby fascinating, enjoyable,and worthwhile. BTW, the UN GMT Perpetual back then was only $27,000. There are far more complex and expensive watches.

EDIT: more info here,

http://www.timezone.com/2002/09/17/the-ulysse-nardin-gmt-perpetual-limited-edition/

Theo Sulphate · Jul 8, 2016

Chan Tran said:
Theo Since you have the Kurta what other calculating devices you have in your collection?

I have a fully working PDP-11 system (UNIBUS) with disk drives, terminals, and other stuff.

My jewel is a 1965 Olivetti Underwood Programma 101 - a programmable desktop computer (1965!) that allowed you to save and load programs on magnetic cards. There was a huge library of statistical, mechanical, and math programs for it. The cool thing about it was that its memory consisted of a huge coil of wire used as a delay line. Not transistors. Not core. A delay line! It is a beautiful machine (I love the Italians):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programma_101

Lastly, I have an HP-67 and HP-41C. I have written native microcode for the 41C - it has an unusual processor architecture.

Theo Sulphate · Jul 8, 2016

Sirius Glass said:
Come on now! Please do not ham it up.

The First Law of Thermodynamics states that old equipment is never destroyed, it just goes from swap meet to swap meet.

CMoore · Jul 8, 2016

Interesting indeed.
Glad you understood the spirit of my question.
Yeah, the complexity and number of functions in those tiny mechanisms is fascinating.
Carry On.......

MartinCrabtree · Jul 8, 2016

A couple of my favorites.

In Praise of Clockwork mechanisms

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