In new waters with this Canon New F-1n

RLangham · Sep 11, 2022

Was at a yard sale today and a lady sold me a New F-1 L.A. with AE Finder FN and AE Power Wonder FN for thirty bucks. I'd never even seen one in person before and didn't know much about it, but I knew one with the Olympic badge in good shape could be worth some money.

So here's the run down, now that I have a fresh battery for it.

Body is good but the shutter speed in the finder is wrong. Shutter seems correct at all speeds, meter seems right.

Aperture priority mode works like a charm assuming the shutter is accurate, and I'm good at judging by ear, personally, so I'd say it is.

The power winder had corrosion on the terminals but luckily no batteries were in it. I scraped the terminals on the battery cap and put in four AA's. It winds correctly. The rotating switch around the vertical release (the one that says A and L) is jammed up and stuck on A, while the S-OFF-C switch around the horizontal release operates fine.

Shutter priority does NOT work. With the power winder on and installed, the lens set to A, the camera meters as if in shutter priority mode, (as it apparently would with the winder off and the lens set to A, I note) but the aperture stops down to f/22 regardless of the aperture indicated in the finder, even in low light and short shutter speeds, as if nothing were restraining it from stopping down all the way. This is true regardless of lens.

I can't find documentation for the winder. Is the "A/L" switch the problem? Are my batteries potentially too weak (I pulled them out of a walkman and a Gameboy so they're not new but not old either.)

I have heard there is no way for a layman to repair the shutter speed indicator in the finder. Is this true?

As I say, I've been a Nikon and Minolta man thus far. I've used Canon A series cameras lightly though. But this is a quirky system with odd characteristics. I'm in uncharted waters.

EDIT: and I've just noticed the aperture indicator on the right of the frame is off by one as well!

gordrob · Sep 11, 2022

Try the learncamerarepair.com website. It has a lot of service manual for a multitude of camera and photo related items. The link below will take you to a service manual for a Canon F1N

Canon New F-1 Service Manual

Factory service manual

learncamerarepair.com

RLangham · Sep 11, 2022

gordrob said:
Try the learncamerarepair.com website. It has a lot of service manual for a multitude of camera and photo related items. The link below will take you to a service manual for a Canon F1N

Canon New F-1 Service Manual

Factory service manual

learncamerarepair.com

Ok, looks like the viewfinder indicators are a little too delicate for me to repair. I've CLA'd a Leica II clone (Zorki) but even that simple job was a little fiddly for me.

Now of course there's the question of the winder not setting the aperture properly... I really suspect there are mechanical faults in the winder. The corrosion on the inner terminals seemed minimal, enough that I just reached in with long forceps and gave it a light scrape, but I wonder about battery leakage. That seized switch is suggestive to me. Has anyone else dealt with an AE PW FN that was damaged by battery leakage?

Still going to use the winder for now, since the previous owner must have lost all the body caps (they're not in the little slot in the winder). If I choose to use it without the winder, will black electrical tape over the rewind hole be good enough to keep light from marring my film? Or will the protruding spool from the canister itself be enough to block light?

Paul Howell · Sep 11, 2022

I would just shoot it with the power winder, seems less trouble than masking the bottom with tape. For $30 you got a real find, never used a Canon F1, lens are great, for what you paid you might to find someone who will service it.

gordrob · Sep 11, 2022

I would use it with the power winder on it if you can not find the body caps. The winder grip make the camera a lot more comfortable to use

RLangham · Sep 11, 2022

Well, here's something else though... between yesterday night and this morning apparently the winder stopped working. It no longer winds or releases the shutter, but it does still activate the meter when I half-press the button. Weird. Maybe the contact is intermittent due to remaining corrosion. I'll clean it better in a while.

Camera seems fine though. Tested it for the first time in daylight, meter seems quite accurate in that range. I'm just glad I have the AE finder. Metered-manual is a little unintuitive with the shutter speed and aperture displayed both being wrong. I have to remember to put the aperture indicator one half step above the needle.

EDIT: Before anyone asks, yes, I probably just did run the batteries down. That was my first thought, and I immediately replaced them before I posted here, but the replacements may not have been good themselves... my wife maintains a huge bag of batteries and I don't think all of them are good.

I replaced them again with definitely, actually fresh batteries and the winder works again, but still no shutter priority functionality.

John Koehrer · Sep 11, 2022

Try A drop of alcohol on the sticky/stuck switch if someone got s bit careless with a
soft drink all it takes is a drop or two to stickify something ike tah.

Doesn't really help with the release problem though, got the manual?

RLangham · Sep 11, 2022

John Koehrer said:
Try A drop of alcohol on the sticky/stuck switch if someone got s bit careless with a
soft drink all it takes is a drop or two to stickify something ike tah.

Doesn't really help with the release problem though, got the manual?

I have read the manual now, which includes basic documentation for both the AE finder FN and AE power winder/motor drive FN.

It has nothing enlightening about the shutter speed priority problem. It basically says that when one of the two AE winders is attached (PW or MD), and the lens is set to A, then it should automatically be in shutter speed priority (just like AE-1, AE-1P, Canonet GIII and so on). No extra steps that I could have missed, apparently.

Probably just something gummed up in the power winder preventing it from setting the aperture. Shame that the winder alone costs 100 bucks in working condition. Maybe I could get thirty or forty selling this winder as-is and put that towards one in better shape. At any rate, the winder does its main job well enough.

EDIT: This camera seems to work in aperture priority mode with the viewfinder head removed completely... is it just Canon being sneaky and locking the aperture priority mode out when the basic prism is installed? Obviously the AE finder FN provides the needle display and judas window to facilitate the use of autoexposure, but it seems that the actual autoexposure circuitry are in the camera. (I have heard some jerks on the internet say that Canon dummied out the shutter priority mode which is otherwise part of the camera, but that does actually depend on the servo motor in the winder, I think, whereas it does seem to be true for aperture priority.)

mshchem · Sep 11, 2022

RLangham said:
I have read the manual now, which includes basic documentation for both the AE finder FN and AE power winder/motor drive FN.

It has nothing enlightening about the shutter speed priority problem. It basically says that when one of the two AE winders is attached (PW or MD), and the lens is set to A, then it should automatically be in shutter speed priority (just like AE-1, AE-1P, Canonet GIII and so on). No extra steps that I could have missed, apparently.

Probably just something gummed up in the power winder preventing it from setting the aperture. Shame that the winder alone costs 100 bucks in working condition. Maybe I could get thirty or forty selling this winder as-is and put that towards one in better shape. At any rate, the winder does its main job well enough.

I would double check the manual. It's kinda confusing to this old Nikon man. I noticed that the thing about the winder and the A. There's also mention about if you have the shutter set at A before attaching the finder, it won't display until you rotate shutter to 1/2000th then back to A.
I can't help but think that with a fresh 6V battery in the camera and fresh AA cells in the winder, and you followed the checklist you might get it to come on. Every connection would need to be clean etc.

I would try taking the AE finder and the winder off the camera. First check to see if the manual shutter speeds work, the put in a Fresh 6V battery and see if you can get the electronic speeds working then add the winder, see if that works then finally the AE finder.
This is just goofy how confusing this is

RLangham · Sep 11, 2022

mshchem said:
I would double check the manual. It's kinda confusing to this old Nikon man. I noticed that the thing about the winder and the A. There's also mention about if you have the shutter set at A before attaching the finder, it won't display until you rotate shutter to 1/2000th then back to A.
I can't help but think that with a fresh 6V battery in the camera and fresh AA cells in the winder, and you followed the checklist you might get it to come on. Every connection would need to be clean etc.

I would try taking the AE finder and the winder off the camera. First check to see if the manual shutter speeds work, the put in a Fresh 6V battery and see if you can get the electronic speeds working then add the winder, see if that works then finally the AE finder.
This is just goofy how confusing this is

I've tried all of that. Mechanical and electronic speeds and aperture priority do work. Removing the finder does nothing and I have fresh batteries in both. The winder connections are clean now.

I understand the principles well enough, though I agree that Nikon did it all much simpler. The only reason that the display doesn't come up if it's already set to A when you mount the prism is that a bolt on the shutter speed dial has to physically push a slider in from the side. The slider has beveled edges, so it bends harmlessly up and out of the way if the bolt is already there. When you turn the dial back to 1/2000th, it pops down and you can return to A, this time pushing the slider into the prism by the end.

But that's not what's at issue. When using the camera in shutter speed priority mode, the shutter speed dial would never be at "A" and the second display in the AE prism would be covered (for whatever reason) by an internal baffle. Nothing should change when the camera goes into shutter speed priority mode, except for the fact that the aperture indicator goes outside the scale and becomes hidden when you put the lens to "A."

I suppose this is all a little better than how the Nikon F2 could be made to do shutter speed priority, but it's still a lot less straightforward. This camera has the capability to meter both shutter speed and aperture priority, but the aperture priority is basically impossible to use without the AE finder FN, and the shutter speed priority depends on a servo in the different AE-FN winders. The metering is all in the body, and the accessories add different features, in contrast to Nikon F and F2, which have all-mechanical bodies with metering in the prism heads.

mshchem · Sep 11, 2022

Man, I'm not sure I would ever figure it out. And the Nikon F2S with the EE servo for turning the aperture ring is pretty much goofy defined.

RLangham · Sep 11, 2022

mshchem said:
Man, I'm not sure I would ever figure it out. And the Nikon F2S with the EE servo for turning the aperture ring is pretty much goofy defined.

It's not very appealing to me, I'll say that. They had one at the pawn shop when I first bought my original Nikon F2SB, but they wanted 200 more dollars for it--they already had to be talked down to $325 for a banged up F2SB with no lens and a capping problem at 1/2000th!

Without the ability to buy a new battery the EE series servos are pretty pointless today but some people liked them at the time I guess. I think the F2 is best as a metered manual camera with no drive. It's already dangerously heavy with just a 50mm lens and a viewfinder!

And anyways you'd figure it out if you could hold the camera in your hands. It's just very different from any other system camera I've ever worked with.

mshchem · Sep 11, 2022

RLangham said:
It's not very appealing to me, I'll say that. They had one at the pawn shop when I first bought my original Nikon F2SB, but they wanted 200 more dollars for it--they already had to be talked down to $325 for a banged up F2SB with no lens and a capping problem at 1/2000th!

Without the ability to buy a new battery the EE series servos are pretty pointless today but some people liked them at the time I guess. I think the F2 is best as a metered manual camera with no drive. It's already dangerously heavy with just a 50mm lens and a viewfinder!

And anyways you'd figure it out if you could hold the camera in your hands. It's just very different from any other system camera I've ever worked with.

I bought my first Nikon F2, actually a F2S, in 1973. I've picked up a few used over the years. Only mishap I've ever had with was the battery to the Photomic finder power failed. Had no effect at all on the camera except the meter wasn't getting power. Since I have too many of these I gave the body to a friend, he's a photojournalist, so every so often he uses it.
I love cameras.

dynachrome · Sep 12, 2022

The original Canon F-1 had a similar attachment called the Servo EE Finder. It was also slow. If you don't need to remove the prism and are content to focus yourself, the Nikon N2020 has both aperture priority and shutter priority modes, a bright finder, focus confirmation, a top shutter speed of 1/2000 and sells for very little. The winder is built in and it takes inexpensive AAA or AA batteries depending on the battery holder attached.

Paul Howell · Sep 14, 2022

Too bad the T90s do not seem to be holding up, in terms of features way ahead of the F1New.

benjiboy · Nov 5, 2022

There are a hell of a lot more Canon F1s who have still working light meters than Nikon F and F 2 cameras because of a better design because of a light meter that doesn't rely on a circular carbon strip, but a beam splitter.

Oren Grad · Nov 5, 2022

RLangham said:
The metering is all in the body, and the accessories add different features, in contrast to Nikon F and F2, which have all-mechanical bodies with metering in the prism heads.

Although note that the New F-1 was really the contemporary of the Nikon F3, for which Nikon moved the meter into the body and gave up on the F2's optional shutter-priority contraption. But yeah, I've always thought the approach Canon took for the New F-1, which requires buying and juggling a winder and extra screens to take full advantage of its metering capabilities, was really annoying. They tried to make a virtue of it in their promotional materials, but it seemed pretty lame even at the time.

dynachrome · Nov 5, 2022

I have a fleet of Canon New F-1 cameras. Every one was serviced by Ken Oikawa. With what film costs today, it doesn't make sense to use a camera that isn't working properly. I agree that the New F-1 is quirky but I enjoy using mine.

benjiboy · Nov 6, 2022

Oren Grad said:
Although note that the New F-1 was really the contemporary of the Nikon F3, for which Nikon moved the meter into the body and gave up on the F2's optional shutter-priority contraption. But yeah, I've always thought the approach Canon took for the New F-1, which requires buying and juggling a winder and extra screens to take full advantage of its metering capabilities, was really annoying. They tried to make a virtue of it in their promotional materials, but it seemed pretty lame even at the time.

It only required a winder or motor drive to give it shutter priority AE, with the AE prism, it had aperture priority AE already with that prism,and no winder or drive..

Oren Grad · Nov 6, 2022

benjiboy said:
It only required a winder or motor drive to give it shutter priority AE, with the AE prism, it had aperture priority AE already with that prism,and no winder or drive..

Yes. Even if one doesn't want to fuss with the winder for shutter priority AE and swapping screens to get different metering patterns, the base configuration is still a perfectly fine and capable camera.

benjiboy · Nov 6, 2022

Oren Grad said:
Yes. Even if one doesn't want to fuss with the winder for shutter priority AE and swapping screens to get different metering patterns, the base configuration is still a perfectly fine and capable camera.

I have three Canon New F1 AE cameras, Oren I have spent more than the last thirty years shooting with them, and I still think they are better cameras than I will ever be a photographer. I have never had any desire to shoot with any other 35mm camera.

Oren Grad · Nov 6, 2022

benjiboy said:
I have three Canon New F1 AE cameras, Oren I have spent more than the last thirty years shooting with them, and I still think they are better cameras than I will ever be a photographer. I have never had any desire to shoot with any other 35mm camera.

That's great! The "best" camera is the one that works best for you.

benjiboy · Nov 6, 2022

Oren Grad said:
That's great! The "best" camera is the one that works best for you.

I bought all my F1s second-hand, and as far as I know, none of them has ever been serviced, yet on checking and comparing the light meter accuracy between them with a Kodak Grey Card and a digital spotmeter their readings agree with each other within three-tenths of a stop, that for cameras that are more than thirty years old to me is phenomenal.

In new waters with this Canon New F-1n

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