In a world without Tri-X...

Shawn Dougherty · Dec 11, 2013

Regular Rod said:
FACT: Kodak could also choose a less curly substrate to make its 120 roll films out of.

RR

Everything else aside... I was surprised by the above sentiment. I've shot hundreds of rolls of TMax 400 120 roll film (not to mention other Kodak 120 roll film) and never had any curl to my negatives.

I am currently transitioning to all Ilford films and paper based on their support, service, quality and commitment to B&W photography. That being said Kodak's current films are certainly not lacking in quality, as even their competitors have attested.

Richard S. (rich815) · Dec 11, 2013

Shawn Dougherty said:
Everything else aside... I was surprised by the above sentiment. I've shot hundreds of rolls of TMax 400 120 roll film (not to mention other Kodak 120 roll film) and never had any curl to my negatives.

Me too. I'm no Kodak fanboy, heck I'm a film whore and use everything and anything but I've shot a lot of Tri-X and Tmax in 120 and never had any curl issues with either. Not with Ilford 120 either. Or eyether. ;-)

Dinesh · Dec 11, 2013

Michael R 1974 said:
I'm Canadian.

But from Montreal.

Boo!

jp498 · Dec 11, 2013

Regular Rod said:
Trash talk? Do you mean criticism? Are we to stay silent for fear the world will shun Kodak and all will be lost?

In response to your demands here are a couple of facts.

FACT: Kodak has a lot to learn from Ilford, particularly in customer care and support.

FACT: Kodak could also choose a less curly substrate to make its 120 roll films out of.

BTW this vituperous defence of Kodak does rather confirm my original assertion about many American photographers.

RR

I'm American. Yes Kodak does come up short compared to Ilford in customer care/communication. We're used to mega-corporations being unpredictable in this regard, but still appreciate the small/medium size business emphasis on customer care and communication.

I have no problem with curl with Kodak 120 film in TMY2/Portra 160/Ektar 100, or Ilford FP4+

winger · Dec 11, 2013

Shawn Dougherty said:
Everything else aside... I was surprised by the above sentiment. I've shot hundreds of rolls of TMax 400 120 roll film (not to mention other Kodak 120 roll film) and never had any curl to my negatives.

Same here. I haven't really had any curl issues with 120 from anyone.
And count me as a quietly gushy American fangirl for Ilford, though I use Kodak, too. Basically, I'll use whatever film fits in the camera in my hand at the time. But TMax100 and Tri-X are go-tos as are HP5+, SFX, Delta 100, XP2 super, and Fuji Acros. In the darkroom, it's all Ilford. And my darkroom is still in PA while I'm in IA and I'm ticked I'll have to wait awhile to use the new papers from Ilford.

As to price differences, I'd guess that tariffs and government policies may have something to do with that. Sucks, but not easy to change.

Regular Rod · Dec 11, 2013

pstake said:
I will be glad to dispense facts about which film is best. It will be a list in order of best to less best.

I am also happy to give facts about who you should vote for and which church to attend. Just send me a pm.

In all seriousness: I heart Tri-x AND I also heart Delta 100. I'm kind of thinking this could be a movie script; a man torn between two loves on different continents, conveniently bouncing back and forth between the two depending on the season, light and time of day. I think Clooney could play me but maybe Clive Owen would be better.

Anyone have an opinion?

Nice one...

RR

Truzi · Dec 11, 2013

On my recent sojourn into B&W I've tried a few different brands - Ilford, Kodak, & Fuji (and some Rollei, which I've not quite worked out yet). I do find something I like in each, and will continue to use each. I definitely like Tri-X. However, I find I tend towards Ilford, using it the most simply because I find I like it best.

rubyfalls · Dec 11, 2013

pstake said:
I will be glad to dispense facts about which film is best. It will be a list in order of best to less best.

I am also happy to give facts about who you should vote for and which church to attend. Just send me a pm.

In all seriousness: I heart Tri-x AND I also heart Delta 100. I'm kind of thinking this could be a movie script; a man torn between two loves on different continents, conveniently bouncing back and forth between the two depending on the season, light and time of day. I think Clooney could play me but maybe Clive Owen would be better.

Anyone have an opinion?

Truly a love story for the ages. Thanks for this post.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

rubyfalls · Dec 11, 2013

winger said:
Same here. I haven't really had any curl issues with 120 from anyone.
And count me as a quietly gushy American fangirl for Ilford, though I use Kodak, too. Basically, I'll use whatever film fits in the camera in my hand at the time. But TMax100 and Tri-X are go-tos as are HP5+, SFX, Delta 100, XP2 super, and Fuji Acros. In the darkroom, it's all Ilford. And my darkroom is still in PA while I'm in IA and I'm ticked I'll have to wait awhile to use the new papers from Ilford.

As to price differences, I'd guess that tariffs and government policies may have something to do with that. Sucks, but not easy to change.

I'm with Winger. Maybe if I had been shooting film much earlier in life, it would be a different story. But when i started (a little over a year ago), ilford was there with both information and product. My uncle -- who is both brilliant and an amazing photographer, and whose help/insight/advice/hand-me-down equipment has been invaluable -- was the one who suggested I give tri-x a shot.

I shoot primarily single object type stuff - faces, lines, etc. I don't do landscapes or 'broad look' shots. Definitely a tree shooter rather than a forest shooter. I dabble in colour on occasion (portra 160 or 800), but mostly stick to b&w.

And I heartily agree with what many have said re: Ilford and service. For an auto-didact, their PDFs and how-to's have been invaluable.

And I dearly love tri-x. That said, I would like very much a faster film that has the feel of D100 - softer, finer grain. I've wondered about pushing D100 and then developing in, say, Microphen or Perceptol.

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StoneNYC · Dec 11, 2013

rubyfalls said:
I'm with Winger. Maybe if I had been shooting film much earlier in life, it would be a different story. But when i started (a little over a year ago), ilford was there with both information and product. My uncle -- who is both brilliant and an amazing photographer, and whose help/insight/advice/hand-me-down equipment has been invaluable -- was the one who suggested I give tri-x a shot.

I shoot primarily single object type stuff - faces, lines, etc. I don't do landscapes or 'broad look' shots. Definitely a tree shooter rather than a forest shooter. I dabble in colour on occasion (portra 160 or 800), but mostly stick to b&w.

And I heartily agree with what many have said re: Ilford and service. For an auto-didact, their PDFs and how-to's have been invaluable.

And I dearly love tri-x. That said, I would like very much a faster film that has the feel of D100 - softer, finer grain. I've wondered about pushing D100 and then developing in, say, Microphen or Perceptol.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ilford D3200 is all that's left in the fast speed films, kodak dropped their P3200 line too... I would admit that, though I love ilford, the two films had a different look, and I did like the P3200 more for low light model scenes, but the D3200 for low light landscapes and product style object photography in low light interiors.

It's fairly fine grained for the speed.

If you don't need quite that much speed, you can shoot Kodak TMY-2 at 800 and NOT have to adjust times/push in development, it's quite flexible in that regard.

It took me a little while to understand how TMY-2 worked, because I tend to push my films, but with TMY-2 you should use standard listed times and you'll be ok shooing at 800. It's very fine grained.

HP5+ can also be shot this way but is grainier.

Hope that helps.

MattKing · Dec 11, 2013

Regular Rod said:
Trash talk? Do you mean criticism? Are we to stay silent for fear the world will shun Kodak and all will be lost?

In response to your demands here are a couple of facts.

FACT: Kodak has a lot to learn from Ilford, particularly in customer care and support.

FACT: Kodak could also choose a less curly substrate to make its 120 roll films out of.

BTW this vituperous defence of Kodak does rather confirm my original assertion about many American photographers.

RR

Kodak is/was far more international than Ilford.

There are tens/hundreds of thousands (millions?) of people in the world who at one time worked for Kodak but weren't in the USA. And in their time, all of the Kodak's customer care and support was legendary - I would hazard a guess that Ilford (as it then was) learned a lot about customer care and support from those Kodaks.

Sadly, the market has changed precipitously, Harman employs far fewer people than Ilford once did, and the various international Kodaks have either disappeared or are a tiny fraction of what they once were. And the still film part of Kodak is more closely connected with Kodak Limited than Eastman Kodak.

But at least Kodak black and white films don't curl (when handled properly).

Richard S. (rich815) · Dec 11, 2013

Let's agree on one thing: Ilford's gummed labels taste the best.

StoneNYC · Dec 11, 2013

rich815 said:
Let's agree on one thing: Ilford's gummed labels taste the best.

What's that?

Richard S. (rich815) · Dec 11, 2013

StoneNYC said:
What's that?

The label you lick to close off the end of 120 rolls.

removed account4 · Dec 11, 2013

rich815 said:
Let's agree on one thing: Ilford's gummed labels taste the best.

mmmm It's amazing! Tomato soup, I can feel it running down my throat! ... It's changing... roast beef and baked potato. Crispy skin and butter! !
And I can almost taste the blueberry pie for dessert !

ilford is lucky, they contracted willie wonka

Pioneer · Dec 11, 2013

Lets see;
1. Kodak TMX 100 by the bucketloads in 120 and 35mm
2. Ilford Delta Pro 3200 by the bunches in 120 and 35mm
3. Ilford HP5+ for 4x5 and 8x10.
4. Kodak D-76 by the gallon
5. Ilford Ilfotec DDX by the liter.
6. Kodak HC110 (by the liter now.)
7. Rodinal in various brands.
8. Arista Fixer by the gallon.
9. Kodak Photo Flo by the bottle.

After that most of it comes from anyone or any store that is having a sale (and I am not usually too picky).

winger · Dec 11, 2013

And I feel like I should add - When I was first shooting with a 35mm, it was always Tri-X, developed in D-76. I didn't know there was anything else until college - and still shot Tri-X mostly then. If I have Tri-X in my dad's old Pentax, I don't need a meter. It wasn't until I started getting serious about printing (around 1998) that I started using Ilford paper and started branching out in film, too. It was really discovering APUG that got me using other films (not to mention branching out in sizes). It's pretty easy to not know other brands exist if you shop at physical stores that are small with low inventory. Yay for discovering Freestyle!

Xmas · Dec 11, 2013

rubyfalls said:
I'm with Winger...

And I dearly love tri-x. That said, I would like very much a faster film that has the feel of D100 - softer, finer grain. I've wondered about pushing D100 and then developing in, say, Microphen or Perceptol.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well your midtones which are nice would be difficult D100 is ok in Microphen @Ilfords 100ISO time and temp providing you bracket or have low contrast and meter at 200ISO or less. Microphen does not do much more for D100 than ID11. Perceptol will slow it relative to ID11.

Pushing will leave difficult shadows and midtones.

Or that is what I get, never use Perceptol, I like grain, tri-x and HP5 ok films.

Roger Cole · Dec 11, 2013

rubyfalls said:
Gushing aside, pretty much everything i have learned since i started into film is either from APUG or Ilford's site. Though for me the Kodak connection is quite real. My family is from east TN, so I have numerous relative who worked, once upon a time, for "the Eastman." One of these days i will finagle my way onto the Eastman site and photograph my heart out. Seriously, it is a site to behold - something straight out of a 20th c sci fi flick.

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Small world. I'm originally from Elizabethton, TN and worked from 2001-2003 for a company contracting with Eastman (which I never called "the" Eastman, as that seems to be a Kingsport-only name.)

Anyway, hi from another TN transplant.

Roger Cole · Dec 11, 2013

Regular Rod said:
There is a natural tendency for Americans to be very loyal to the Kodak products, which can blindfold folk from seeing the advantages of choosing a manufacturer whose very reason to exist is black and white analogue photography. For black and white, Ilford makes better films, in a wider range of choices than Kodak ever did. It is with envy that I notice you can buy Ilford films in America at much lower prices than we in England have to pay. Very frustrating when it seems that generally the American photographers are oblivious to their good fortune and still continue to prefer the inferior, but home grown product.

RR

Um...I love Ilford products BUT...

I would even agree that, during my tenure in photography at least since the early 80s, Ilford has always made better PAPERS in a wider range of choices than Kodak, and that they currently make a wider range of FILMS, I can't agree that Ilford films are "better" than Kodak's. HP5+ is (less than we let on most of the time though) different from Tri-X but I wouldn't call either better. And I like the Delta films fine but I still prefer TMX and TMY-2. Kodak makes nothing like Pan F+, FP4+ (now that Plus-X is gone, but they did in the form of Plus-X) or XP2 though.

Even in papers there were some exceptionally good Kodak ones like Ektalure and Elite, but I never liked Kodak's polycontrast offerings as much as Ilford's MG ones.

Red Tractors · Dec 11, 2013

The great yellow father is not what he once was, but as long as building 38 cranks out Tri-X that is what I will be using.

In a world without Tri-X I'd shoot HP5+ (Ilford Tri-x), when I run out of Plus-X I'll shoot FP4.

Be thankful that we still have film, shoot what you like and be happy there are still choices.

RattyMouse · Dec 11, 2013

rich815 said:
Let's agree on one thing: Ilford's gummed labels taste the best.

Personally I have always favored Fujifilim's 120 rolls due to the adhesive that they used. I cant figure out why Kodak and Ilford have not copied that.

Xmas · Dec 11, 2013

Roger Cole said:
Um...I love Ilford products BUT...
I can't agree that Ilford films are "better" than Kodak's. HP5+ is (less than we let on most of the time though) different from Tri-X but I wouldn't call either better. And I like the Delta films fine but I still prefer TMX and TMY-2. Kodak makes nothing like Pan F+, FP4+ (now that Plus-X is gone, but they did in the form of Plus-X) or XP2 though.

well Kodak still make Double-X in 5222 quite similar to FP4 and they still make a mono C41 film like XP2 -
BW400CN, or they did up to a few weeks ago.

Xmas · Dec 11, 2013

RattyMouse said:
Personally I have always favored Fujifilim's 120 rolls due to the adhesive that they used. I cant figure out why Kodak and Ilford have not copied that.

Can we not stick to the topic?

MartinP · Dec 11, 2013

The BW400CN is not functionally equivalent to XP2+. The Kodak film has an orange mask intended for machine enprints on colour RA4-paper while the Ilford film is just a dye image on plain filmbase - much more practical for black-and-white darkroom work.

In a world without Tri-X...

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