Improving Seneca

In the process of cleaning up my two Seneca Improved cameras for new bellows, one 5x7 and one 8x10 I discovered that the larger one had felt glued to the camera side of the back, were the film holder goes. I also discovered brass shims where the ground glass sat in the back frame. I measured the two backs and some of my other cameras and found that the dimension, t-dim., or depth was not the same as modern cameras. They were way off, perhaps for some older spec. or wooden holders, who knows for sure. I assume that the previous owner/owners had problems and put the shims in and the felt. The bale is missing on the larger and the hole were filled with felt rolled up and stuffed in. The bale is intact and working on the small so I will copy it and make one for the larger. It's very compact and very well designed and integrated into the back and not an add on like the new ones. I am surprised that no one has copied it. I have the complete 8x10 camera including the extension and case, with a broken leather strap. I am going to make an extension for the 5x7 while I am at it. I may not use them much but at least they will be y2k ready to go. The Seneca designs are much lighter than the Kodaks and really very well built for the design and weight. The wood is superb for being covered with glossy black enamel. The chrome on the 8x10 is great but the 5x7 is pitted and what I will do is unknown.
I will have some extra restoration to do now, both suffer from the same problem, age, they are too old for modern film holders so I will have to remodel the backs to .228 and .260 plus/minus the variance. I should also measure them with the film I use and measure the film holders and seek agreement of both. It's different than adjusting the screen in the Mamiya for the correction. One uses a screw driver and the other uses sandpaper.

Curt I have a Seneca Improved 8x10 and I have been using wooden and modern holders with no problem. I will take a close look at it. I don't think I've seen anything like what you are describing on the back of mine. Great cameras. Light weight and I have done a fair amount of work with mine extended out with the 25" componet of my Turner triple with no noticable problems. Let me know if you have any issues you need to discuss and I will take a close look at mine.

Jim

I will, and Im going to give them a really good bench test to make sure they are working properly. The back on the 8x has been reglassed and worked on but the 5x hasn't been touched. The numbers didn't match my Calumets, Shen, Kodak 2D's in 5x and 8x and the 4x field camera I made 25 years ago. I had to scratch my head when I found that both were off. I would expect the 8x10 but the 5x7 was way out too. My Kodak 2D 5x7 is right on the mark and the negatives are sharp. I haven't used the Senecas so I had no idea what they would do. How about a 12x20 Seneca Improved? Wouldn't that be nice?
Thanks
Curt

I recorded the measurements this morning and found the gg to at .222 and it had two brass shims that placed it at .252 with the shims being .015 each plus the cement. The glass was adjusted for modern holders. The original frame without shims was made for another holder dimension. I will have to put shims in again or an adjustable flat head screw head system in.

If it were me, I'd use some CA and tack shims in permanently, you never know when you'll have to replace the GG in the field, it's good to know that the shims won't disapperar on you when you least expect it.


erie

I decided to make permanent shims and to simplify my entire way of working. I use too many cameras, too many formats and too many film types. I am folding up in all of the "stuff" I have. Not all of the great photographers had dozens of cameras and lenses. I have literally become a repairman to maintain all the equipment I have. When I go out I have to make those hard decisions about what to take with me. It's time to clean house. I will use only the film, paper, and chemicals I can get from Freestyle and B&H. With Freestyle as my primary choice, they have been so good in all of the years that I have needed supplies.

Hi Curt,

I was recently given a 5 x 7 Improved Seneca View. It had been sitting in a box in a garage for twenty years. Mine was missing the extension rail and the lensboard and it's going to need a new bellows. But overall the camera cleaned up beautifully. I have to agree that the bale is a clever and compact design solution for the GG back. The Seneca is lightweight, folds up relatively compactly and with new bellows looks like it could handle some long lenses. Only a couple of pieces of the nickel plated hardware on my Seneca need serious attention. I was thinking of using one of those home nickel plating kits for the smaller pieces. The lensboards I should be able to fabricate but the rear extension rail may be problematic. Let me know what you come up with on that. Too bad Seneca sold out to Conley in the late 20's. I wish the company was still in business. One of the nicest looking cameras I own.

I was recently given a 5 x 7 Improved Seneca View. It had been sitting in a box in a garage for twenty years. Mine was missing the extension rail and the lensboard and it's going to need a new bellows. But overall the camera cleaned up beautifully. I have to agree that the bale is a clever and compact design solution for the GG back. The Seneca is lightweight, folds up relatively compactly and with new bellows looks like it could handle some long lenses. Only a couple of pieces of the nickel plated hardware on my Seneca need serious attention. I was thinking of using one of those home nickel plating kits for the smaller pieces. The lensboards I should be able to fabricate but the rear extension rail may be problematic. Let me know what you come up with on that. Too bad Seneca sold out to Conley in the late 20's. I wish the company was still in business. One of the nicest looking cameras I own.

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Hello Mr./Mrs. sharpnikkor, I have a Nikon F3hp, bought it new and it is an exceptional work of art.

Anyway, are you going to use the Seneca 5x7 that you have? They really are light in weight for that format and you could take it about any place you want, airplane or backpacking. You will need a bellows based on the amount of extension you will be having. I had some thought about the rear rail extension for them. I was lucky to get the extension for my 8x10 Seneca but my 5x7 doesn't have one either. I was looking at it and I don't know that I will be using it that much but I was giving some thought to making a rail without the rack. That might seem odd but matching the pitch and getting the rack, they are fairly expensive, a pair of 30 inch racks with four pinions for a 5x7 is right around one hundred dollars. I know, I have the set and will be building a Canham type field camera. I have the Canham 5x7 bellows already. Back to the Seneca, without the rack the back can slide on the wood, which it normally does and locks in place like it normally does, but costs less and takes less time to get done. Monorail view cameras like the Toyo G slides on the tube and focuses with rack and pinion in the standard. I would route out for future inclusion of a rack. I don't think I will need it on that camera though. I focus in the front anyway. Good luck getting yours cleaned up and adjusted. The lens boards are easy to make. Do you have a lens for it yet? A lot of lenses cover these and are plentiful.

Curt

Curt said:

I was giving some thought to making a rail without the rack. That might seem odd but matching the pitch and getting the rack, they are fairly expensive, a pair of 30 inch racks with four pinions for a 5x7 is right around one hundred dollars. Without the rack the back can slide on the wood, which it normally does and locks in place like it normally does, but costs less and takes less time to get done.

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I have thought about doing the same thing for my Seneca 5x7 and my B&J 8x10. Maybe also adding a second longer piece that runs underneath both the new rear and existing front extensions, tying it all together into one stable platform.

Anyone else done this? Got pictures?

Frank the idea of a stabilizing rail or board is a good one. These cameras aren't bad but at extension they are mechanically weak. Most of the weakness is however is in the chrome plated "shoe" that rides on the wood of the rail. Compared to the Kodak 2D, I have an 8x and 5x in 2D, the Seneca is lighter and I think more beautiful. They have the Art Deco style that I like.

I will try to get some pictures of mine while I am think about practical modifications. Does your model have the front rail lateral shift? My 8x10 does not have any lateral shift but the 5x7 has it in the front rail.

Curt

Mine only has front rise. I will probably sell it soon since it needs work and I have never used it.

Curt, after reading your first post on the GG depth or t-dim on your Senecas, I decided to measure the depth on my two 5 x 7's. The Seneca measured
.190 and the Agfa Ansco measured .219, just within specs. Looks like the Seneca needs to have its GG shimmed out a tad. Your idea of a gearless back rail extension sounds good and easier to make. I do plan on using this camera by the way, and I have some old lenses in shutters and barrels. But no lensboard. Would someone post the lensboard dimensions for the 5 x 7 Improved Seneca View? I need the outside dimensions... the edge thickness and width.... the back dimensions.... the overall board thickness....
Thanks, Scott