Improving my BW developing process

samhuwyler · Dec 14, 2015

Hello

I started home developing roughly a year ago.
But I'm not satisfied with my results.
I get a lot of water spots on my negatives.
I use tap water for every process.
The water in Switzerland is pretty "hard" (lots of minerals).

I figured I need to use distilled water.

I don't want to use an immense amount of distilled water.
So in which process is it most sufficient/crucial to use distilled water?

Thank you in advance and greetings from Switzerland
Samuel

PS:
I got all my chemicals from a local store (own brand / ars-imago).

Anon Ymous · Dec 14, 2015

You only need to use distilled/deionised water when mixing the wetting agent.

samhuwyler · Dec 14, 2015

Anon Ymous said:
You only need to use distilled/deionised water when mixing the wetting agent.

Thanks for the quick reply.

To be clear. The wetting agent is the washing bath at the very end?

Anon Ymous · Dec 14, 2015

samhuwyler said:
Thanks for the quick reply.

To be clear. The wetting agent is the washing bath at the very end?

I wouldn't call that "washing" bath, it's not a wash really.
You wash your film with whatever method works for you, then use a wetting agent like Kodak Photo-Flo, Ilford Ilfotol, Agfa Agepon etc. This wetting agent should better be mixed with distilled water. Perhaps you are using this? If so, then this seems to be the wetting agent, but not just a wetting agent. It's probably something like Agfa Sistan.

samhuwyler · Dec 14, 2015

Anon Ymous said:
I wouldn't call that "washing" bath, it's not a wash really.
You wash your film with whatever method works for you, then use a wetting agent like Kodak Photo-Flo, Ilford Ilfotol, Agfa Agepon etc. This wetting agent should better be mixed with distilled water. Perhaps you are using this? If so, then this seems to be the wetting agent, but not just a wetting agent. It's probably something like Agfa Sistan.

Yeah, that's the one I'm using.
Thank you for your advice. I'm gonna try this method this evening and report back.

cheers

chris77 · Dec 14, 2015

if you work properly you can reuse the distilled water of final rinse.
but beware of dust and dirt.
final rinse in the tank with distilled water plus wetting agent or just a tiny drop of dishwashing liquid.
distilled water back to canister before you take the film out.
works for me.
grüsse in die schweiz

chris

samhuwyler said:
Hello

I started home developing roughly a year ago.
But I'm not satisfied with my results.
I get a lot of water spots on my negatives.
I use tap water for every process.
The water in Switzerland is pretty "hard" (lots of minerals).

I figured I need to use distilled water.

I don't want to use an immense amount of distilled water.
So in which process is it most sufficient/crucial to use distilled water?

Thank you in advance and greetings from Switzerland
Samuel

PS:
I got all my chemicals from a local store (own brand / ars-imago).

pdeeh · Dec 14, 2015

_*_ said:
final rinse in the tank with distilled water plus wetting agent or just a tiny drop of dishwashing liquid.

don't let PE hear you say that ...

Photo Engineer (at photo.net in 2009!) said:
Myths in B&W photography #2

Rowland Mowrey , Aug 06, 2009; 02:55 p.m.

Myth #2: You can use household detergent in place of Photo Flo or the equivalent to prevent water spots.
Well, yes and no. Yes you can if the detergent meets the followng criteria:
a: It contains to dye to tint it. It must be clear
b: It contains no scent
c: It is a liquid itself when the water is evaporated off
d: This is optional - If it is non-ionic
Ok, here is the problem. Most detergents dry to a scummy solid with an odor and a color. This can ruin your negatives. In hard water areas, ionic surfactants (soaps) can form salts with the metals in hard water such as Calcium, and leave a scum. Photo Flo and many other detergents are non-ionic, or are formulated to form no precipitate when they dry down in the presence of metals in hard water.
Good wetting agents also do not dry to a solid or near solid, but rather either remain a faint trace oil in the emulsion or they slowly evaporate as the coating dries.
Some advocate the use of alcohol as a final rinse. This can be done, but remember that alcohol was used to assist in rapid drying, not as a wetting agent, and also denature alcohol sometimes contains ingredients harmful to film. One type of denatured alcohol forms a fine white precipitate when mixed with water, and this can cause a haze to form in the film.

(PE wrote a whole series of these mythbusters at photo.net (http://photo.net/black-and-white-photo-film-processing-forum/00U9YV is just the first): they are easy enough to find but I wish they were all here at APUG as a sticky)

Rick A · Dec 14, 2015

_*_ said:
if you work properly you can reuse the distilled water of final rinse.
but beware of dust and dirt.
final rinse in the tank with distilled water plus wetting agent or just a tiny drop of dishwashing liquid.
distilled water back to canister before you take the film out.
works for me.
grüsse in die schweiz

chris

NEVER use dish washing liquid for a wetting agent(surfactant), they contain enzymes that break down fats, also fragrances, which could harm the emulsion of your film. I use a combination of two drops Edwal LFN to one liter distilled water, plus one capful of 91% isopropyl alcohol, which can be reused many times as a final rinse before hanging film to dry. I also shake the excess liquid from my film before unrolling it to hang, never any spotting.

chris77 · Dec 14, 2015

Rick A said:
NEVER use dish washing liquid for a wetting agent(surfactant), they contain enzymes that break down fats, also fragrances, which could harm the emulsion of your film. I use a combination of two drops Edwal LFN to one liter distilled water, plus one capful of 91% isopropyl alcohol, which can be reused many times as a final rinse before hanging film to dry. I also shake the excess liquid from my film before unrolling it to hang, never any spotting.

although i am afraid it might relaunch a discussion, addying 1 tiny drop (and i mean tiny) of dishwashing soap to 500ml of water will harm the negatives because of enzymes that break down fats or whatsoever residue..? really?
well then, bring on the proof

removed account4 · Dec 14, 2015

samhuwyler :

if you are getting water spots, i would use distilled water for your whole process.
once you get negatives WITHOUT spots, then you can decide and test
specific parts of your process with regular water to see which can be regular tap water.
photoflo is the absolute cheapest part of the process, it takes 4 drops per large tank of film reels
and a bottle will last a very long time. i just finished using a 8-10oz bottle last year ( or maybe it was 2 years ago ? )
it was purchased in 1981 ...

good luck !

===

_*_

you can do it to YOUR film if you want. it has been suggested in the past
whenever it is suggested people use dawn dish detergent or "jet dry" ...
i am sure there are worse, but these products really aren't very good choices.
photoflo is inexpensive and it was made for what it does, not to wash dishes, and
leave the last dish greese free, or your wine glasses spotless ...

i'd use these items for your films and let your films sit for a year or 2 or 5 before recommending
others do the same ... YMMV

pdeeh · Dec 14, 2015

_*_ said:
although i am afraid it might relaunch a discussion, addying 1 tiny drop (and i mean tiny) of dishwashing soap to 500ml of water will harm the negatives because of enzymes that break down fats or whatsoever residue..? really?
well then, bring on the proof

All the proof I need is contained in the quote from PE.

If you choose not to take the word of the distinguished photographic engineer and chemist, it's hard to know what will constitute proof for you.

railwayman3 · Dec 14, 2015

It's cheap enough to use one of the "proper" photographic products.....I'm just finished a bottle of Tetenal wetting agent, which I started in 1999 (I'd written the date on it, just out of interest to see how long it would last!)

David Lyga · Dec 14, 2015

Since 1964 I have been developing film. Currently, I live in Philadelphia where water is, also, hard.

Do this: after washing your negative, put negatives in clean cup of water with a few drops of wetting agent. Next, take out the negatives and hang up to dry with either clothes pin or film clip (both top and bottom ends of film strip). Now the IMPORTANT PART: wipe the side opposite the emulsion side completely so that NO water spots appear. Next, with a VERY clean, damp sponge, do the same with the emulsion side, from top to bottom of the film strip.

You now have NO water spots on the entire film strip. The only other thing you need to do is to let the film dry in an environment withOUT any dust. The wet emulsion side is vulnerable to dust drying (and setting) into that emulsion. - David Lyga

RalphLambrecht · Dec 14, 2015

samhuwyler said:
Hello

I started home developing roughly a year ago.
But I'm not satisfied with my results.
I get a lot of water spots on my negatives.
I use tap water for every process.
The water in Switzerland is pretty "hard" (lots of minerals).

I figured I need to use distilled water.

I don't want to use an immense amount of distilled water.
So in which process is it most sufficient/crucial to use distilled water?

Thank you in advance and greetings from Switzerland
Samuel

PS:
I got all my chemicals from a local store (own brand / ars-imago).

just use distilled water for a final rinse with a tiny amount of wetting agent and you'll be fine. no neeed for a distilled water- wash

Gerald C Koch · Dec 14, 2015

_*_ said:
if you work properly you can reuse the distilled water of final rinse.
but beware of dust and dirt.
final rinse in the tank with distilled water plus wetting agent or just a tiny drop of dishwashing liquid.
distilled water back to canister before you take the film out.
works for me.
grüsse in die schweiz

chris

Do not use dishwashing liquid. It is made for dishes and not films. It contains other ingredients which can cause problems.

In response to another post do not rinse the film after using Photo-Flo or other surfactant.

chris77 · Dec 14, 2015

pdeeh said:
All the proof I need is contained in the quote from PE.

If you choose not to take the word of the distinguished photographic engineer and chemist, it's hard to know what will constitute proof for you.

PE has helped me on several things. its the user on this forum i have PM'ed most often.
his experience and knowledge is profound and i am not saying that it is not true what he says.

i am just curious to see evidence of a negative damaged by the use of a tiny drop of dishwashing liquid.
that's all.

all the negatives from two years and more ago look perfectly fine, although i have been using dishwashing liquid then.
since i bought a bottle of tetenal wetting agent some time ago i am using this now instead, sure..

no spots here or there... ever.

pdeeh · Dec 14, 2015

fair enough

markbarendt · Dec 14, 2015

David Lyga said:
with a VERY clean, damp sponge

Sponges were what finally fixed my water spot issue, even with tap water. PhotoFlo and LFN both work perfectly for me doing this.

I use two sponges and sandwich the film and take one pass.

removed account4 · Dec 14, 2015

_*_ said:
PE has helped me on several things. its the user on this forum i have PM'ed most often.
his experience and knowledge is profound and i am not saying that it is not true what he says.

i am just curious to see evidence of a negative damaged by the use of a tiny drop of dishwashing liquid.
that's all.

all the negatives from two years and more ago look perfectly fine, although i have been using dishwashing liquid then.
since i bought a bottle of tetenal wetting agent some time ago i am using this now instead, sure..

no spots here or there... ever.

excellent,
but how do your wine glasses and greesy dishes look

nworth · Dec 14, 2015

Treating the film with properly diluted wetting agent takes care of most hard water problems. Be sure you dilute it properly - too strong a concentration can leave gum and marks. Usually, you don't need distilled water to dilute it. The wetting agent is a one shot - do not reuse it. Kodak Photo-Flo is readily available in North America, but I'm not sure about Europe. There are some substitutes, but be sure to use something that is intended for photographic use. The wrong kind of wetting agent can cause harm. Photo-Flo is actually a diluted form of an industrial wetting agent available from some chemical suppliers. I'm not sure what (Triton something, I think). Maybe someone can supply details or suggest a safe industrial substitute.

With very hard water, a washing aid like Hypo Clearing Agent is very useful to ensure adequate and even washing.

Distilled water is available in supermarkets in the US at very low cost. If you need greater quantities, most communities have suppliers. You can also make your own. Small stills and deionization setups are available at low cost. Even deionization and filter rigs made to purify water for irons or drinking water can work. Just be sure you get something has a dionization stage, rather than just a filter. I keep a couple of gallons cof distilled water on hand to mix fussy things and for fussy rinses, but generally it is not needed, even if you have hard water. Most commercial photo chemicals include a sequestering agent to prevent calcium compounds from precipitating to form a scum or deposits. If you have problems with developers, a couple of grams per liter of sodium (or potassium) hexametaphosphate can do wonders.

chris77 · Dec 14, 2015

jnanian said:
excellent,
but how do your wine glasses and greesy dishes look

well, not too good.
maybe i shouldn't use Farmer's reducer to clean them?

removed account4 · Dec 14, 2015

_*_ said:
well, not too good.
maybe i shouldn't use Farmer's reducer to clean them?

dang, I hate when that happens!

"Madge, why are my fingers tingling?"
"no need to worry Betty ( pushing her manicure client's hand back into the funny colored liquid )
you are soaking your hands in farmers reducer,
photographers have been using it for years to bleach and reduce film density,
we use in the kitchen not only to reduce yor dishes to .. well, goop, but to work on those fingers too "

Sirius Glass · Dec 14, 2015

_*_ said:
final rinse in the tank with distilled water plus wetting agent or just a tiny drop of dishwashing liquid.

NO
NO
NO
NO
NO
NO
NO

That is a really bad idea waiting to damage the film. Do not do that in your darkroom!

Sirius Glass · Dec 14, 2015

Anon Ymous said:
I wouldn't call that "washing" bath, it's not a wash really.
You wash your film with whatever method works for you, then use a wetting agent like Kodak Photo-Flo, Ilford Ilfotol, Agfa Agepon etc. This wetting agent should better be mixed with distilled water. Perhaps you are using this? If so, then this seems to be the wetting agent, but not just a wetting agent. It's probably something like Agfa Sistan.

Rick A said:
NEVER use dish washing liquid for a wetting agent(surfactant), they contain enzymes that break down fats, also fragrances, which could harm the emulsion of your film. I use a combination of two drops Edwal LFN to one liter distilled water, plus one capful of 91% isopropyl alcohol, which can be reused many times as a final rinse before hanging film to dry. I also shake the excess liquid from my film before unrolling it to hang, never any spotting.

+ 1

+ 1

Slixtiesix · Dec 15, 2015

Sounds plausible to me. Film is made of gelatin, and considering what dishwashing liquids do to residues of gelatin when washing the dishes... Surely, the film gelatin contains hardeners so I doubt the emulsion would go down the drain immediately, but I would not use it!

Improving my BW developing process

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