Importance of analog photography in a digital world

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Dinksta

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Helo fellow APUG members,

I am in a public speaking class and have chose to do a speech on the importance of analog photography in the digital world. What would you guys consider major points to this argument.

Thanks in advance for your time!
 

jp498

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Honestly, it's a real stretch to call contemporary analog photography "important" in the perspective of a layman/non-artist. I think it's a great craft, fun hobby. History is important, and analog photography is living history to the extent we make it so. That's about the only angle I'd take. And it's wont get destroyed in an EMP blast.
 

AgX

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-) physical image, to acces with ones own senses

-) better archival properties
 
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When you call something 'important' it's best to try to back it up with some facts of why it's important. And, frankly, I can't think of a single reason of why film photography is important for other than selfish reasons.

What I LOVE about darkroom based photography is that you can make prints without using computers, that negatives developed 50 years ago can still be successfully printed without any software updates. Printing in the darkroom is, in my opinion, the best reason to shoot film. If you just scan your film and show it online, then what's the purpose? Film won't make those photographs any better. Slightly different, yes, but not better. That's why I am trying to promote printing, an art that is vanishing very rapidly in favor of sad online digital display.

If Flickr stopped existing tomorrow, for example, how would that affect photography? Are we too dependent on computers and digital technology just to view a photograph? I opine we are.
 

zanxion72

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I don't think it really matters how important this is to others, but rather how important it is to you. Many will say that digital is better for one reason or another. I will not argue them. Analog photography matters for me and that is all that counts. I love it, it pleases me, and I have a lot more fun with it than with my digitals. I love being able to feel the fabric of the paper of my photos, stare at them at an ease for as long as I like without having to resize and fit things into view, without having to turn on a computer.
I just love it.
 

removed account4

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the main importance is archivability.
it is a fact that images made on film and printed on paper
have a quality that allows them a lifespan if processed correctly.
new media is just that, new media with a relatively unknown life expectancy.
i am selfish, but for good reason ... nothing like a shoebox of images ..
 

peteyj10

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Important? As mentioned, most of us are here still using film, not because we have to be, but because we want to. We prefer it (or at least enjoy it as a hobby). I suppose personal enjoyment itself could be a reason as to why the analog process is important in the digital world. Digital just doesn't bring the same kind of joy as using film to many film shooters.

I would also argue that learning photography is better on film than on digital. If you screw up your exposure, you see it right away on digital, you adjust your settings and try again until you get it right. You can use that as a crutch with digital. Rather than learning about proper exposure, you can just do trial and error until you get it right, if you so choose.
 

pbromaghin

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Well, without film there wouldn't be any circuit boards for all those digital devices that have taken over our lives and threaten to bring on the zombie apocalypse.
 
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Dinksta

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I point I included in the speech was that getting "Pro results" was much cheaper on film. The quality of lets say a decent 35mm camera and lens and a roll of velvia would cost you less than 150$ USD including any lab fees. Getting these same results on digital would require much more expensive equipment up front. Granted, it costs you every roll you shoot and with digital it is essentially free. Same goes for medium format most young adults don't necessarily have funds to dish out for digital medium format and film medium format can be had for much less. You all do make a good point on the archivablity of film.
 

ntenny

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It's always kind of hard to say what's "important" about art; as a producer or an audience, so much comes down to matters of taste.

That said, I think the topic is exactly isomorphic to "the importance of painting in a photographic world".

-NT
 

PKM-25

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It’s important from a bigger picture standpoint....

Not everything needs to be or should be digitized and if you talk to people in person, not on the internet, a lot of folks are tired of the hype of it all. There is a very troubling trend that plays out on the web in that more and more things are designed to self obsolete at a *much* faster rate than ever before….the biggest issue being too fast to keep a pulse on and this includes job loss with no replacement jobs.

It’s the sheer volume of noise on the web driven by giant corporations who broker content at a madding pace that drown out the true message of what is going on.

So the way that the analog movement fits into this is that it is proof that not only is the hype of web born metrics not a true indicator of how people really feel about it, if anything there is a tide turning back to a more simple way of living and that includes more computer free, artisan aspects of life.

For me personally, it is important because of all of the above and the fact it is one more thing that sets my work apart from a marketing standpoint. Digital photography by sheer virtue of what it really is, a medium that is constantly in a techno-flux, is one of the most self-obsoleting things I have ever seen. When a person buys my prints, they are buying my passion and commitment to giving them something I hand crafted, something unique in a world of digital hype. So I am giving them a better product from me personally and that translates to a better product overall.
 

MattKrull

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When I here the word "importance", I tend to think "critical importance". And unfortunately, film is not critical to the survival of photography any more than wet plate is. It's a medium. Mediums come and go.

What's the importance of water colours and oil paints in a world with acrylic paint?

How important is the horse to transportation? It isn't. But it was critical as little as 100 years ago. The horse's place in society has changed, but is not gone. Now the only people who own horses are people who love horses and chose to make use of them. Horses are no longer important to transportation, but they are important to people.

The choice of paint type is unimportant to painting, but it is important to the painter.

Film is unimportant to photography, but important to photographers who value the mental process of shooing in film, who value the physical process of bringing about a print through certain (analogue) means, and who value a certain asthetic.
 

Prof_Pixel

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When I here the word "importance", I tend to think "critical importance". And unfortunately, film is not critical to the survival of photography any more than wet plate is. It's a medium. Mediums come and go.

What's the importance of water colours and oil paints in a world with acrylic paint?

How important is the horse to transportation? It isn't. But it was critical as little as 100 years ago. The horse's place in society has changed, but is not gone. Now the only people who own horses are people who love horses and chose to make use of them. Horses are no longer important to transportation, but they are important to people.

The choice of paint type is unimportant to painting, but it is important to the painter.

Film is unimportant to photography, but important to photographers who value the mental process of shooing in film, who value the physical process of bringing about a print through certain (analogue) means, and who value a certain asthetic.

Very well said!!!!!
 

PKM-25

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Film is unimportant to photography, but important to photographers who value the mental process of shooing in film, who value the physical process of bringing about a print through certain (analogue) means, and who value a certain asthetic.

Exactly, and not exactly.

Film and fine had crafted prints are important to me in order to do my best work. So when a customer is really into the image I made, they ask how I made it, the process becomes important to them, every single time. I have often been told months later that the owner of one of my prints proudly tells people who see it on the wall how it was made, it stays important to them too.

Don't discount the value of hand crafted in a world filled with digital representations...it seems to happen a lot on here and it is not how it is in the real, non-internet rhetoric world.
 

MattKing

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Film is important to photography, because a meaningful minority of photographers use film to create photographs.

Anything that encourages the creation of a photograph is important to photography. The only difference in importance between film, digital sensors, daguerrotype materials, cyanotype materials, and the myriad of other materials used to create what we call photographs is the number of users and the particularities of the results that may be obtained.

There are still large numbers of people using film - just not nearly as many as there used to be.
 
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Exactly, and not exactly.

Film and fine had crafted prints are important to me in order to do my best work. So when a customer is really into the image I made, they ask how I made it, the process becomes important to them, every single time. I have often been told months later that the owner of one of my prints proudly tells people who see it on the wall how it was made, it stays important to them too.

Don't discount the value of hand crafted in a world filled with digital representations...it seems to happen a lot on here and it is not how it is in the real, non-internet rhetoric world.

I don't disagree with you, Dan. Not at all. But it's strange to see such a mass exodus from the printed photograph at the same time.

I'm very happy to belong to a group of photographers around here who all value the printed photograph. We meet once a month and sometimes in between, just to hang out and look at each other's work. It's a refreshing thing to do, something we all relish.

Perhaps my analysis earlier was hasty, with respect to darkroom based photography being important to me for selfish reasons. Your example above of owners of your work being interested in how the work was created is encouraging.
 

PKM-25

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I don't disagree with you, Dan. Not at all. But it's strange to see such a mass exodus from the printed photograph at the same time.

I'm very happy to belong to a group of photographers around here who all value the printed photograph. We meet once a month and sometimes in between, just to hang out and look at each other's work. It's a refreshing thing to do, something we all relish.

Perhaps my analysis earlier was hasty, with respect to darkroom based photography being important to me for selfish reasons. Your example above of owners of your work being interested in how the work was created is encouraging.

I thought about what you said earlier, am I correct to assume you mean those who used to get prints back from the 1 hour lab, pick a neg and get a nice 8x10 to give to a friend or relative? Because I wholeheartedly agree with that massive decline, I have to pretty much drive 40 miles for that kind of service. Otherwise, there is an office supply store that is able to make up to 8x10 prints or the Dead Link Removed not far from here that charges a fortune for their digital only work.

People miss prints...they really do. But because it has fallen well below the threshold of profitable for once giants like Ritz, folks don't think it is easy to do anymore and yet they order stuff online all the time.

I look at the whole technology thing like a giant pendulum. In some cases it is wiping things out, in other cases it swings back a little, not like it used to be but not gone like was implied by the Yahoo home page.

One thing is for sure, fine art is generally printed and will likely remain so, that it least keeps it in people's minds if not on their walls...
 

Dr Croubie

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I point I included in the speech was that getting "Pro results" was much cheaper on film. The quality of lets say a decent 35mm camera and lens and a roll of velvia would cost you less than 150$ USD including any lab fees. Getting these same results on digital would require much more expensive equipment up front. Granted, it costs you every roll you shoot and with digital it is essentially free. Same goes for medium format most young adults don't necessarily have funds to dish out for digital medium format and film medium format can be had for much less. You all do make a good point on the archivablity of film.

I'll definitely agree with this. You can get a full 645 kit with body and lenses for a few hundred dollars, a very good scanner for the same again, then pay maybe $1 per shot of velvia and scan to 40MP+.
Or get a 4x5 kit for about the same again, and pay $10/shot of velvia, and scan to 100MP+
Or you can buy a 40MP leaf back for what, the price of a car or two?
The argument over whether a digital back produces 'better' images or can be printed bigger than film is irrelevant to me, as there's only one of those that I'll ever afford.

(and then the same as the others have said, that velvia will still look good in 40 years' time, you can still hold it up to the light and see all the colours without turining on a computer and upgrading programs).

People miss prints...they really do.

Interesting point. I'm known amongst my friends for taking a film camera (or three) to almost every communal event/party/bbq we go to. Recently I've got an enlarger and I've been giving out some of the better shots from the past few years as 8x10s. As much as they love them (at least, I love them), within 5 minutes they've always said without fail, "can you email this to me too?"
 
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In the wider public, 'out there' sphere, analogue is not important. I used the term "analogue photography" over a latté in the Big Smoke last week to a friend I haven't seen for 10 years. He asked, "what is analogue photography, Gabs?"

It's a niche market followed by hobbyists and artists that can make cost-effective use of it with traditional skills, or long-established professionals serving a specialised market segment. We must all live in hope that the world never forgets (or doesn't want to know about) the beauty of an image committed to celluloid, yet so many many people of our generation have never touched film, having been brought up in a push-button world to have everything done for them then move on to the next thing.

Another way of looking at analogue is that is is looked at now as an "alternative", "old-fashioned" method, and not the prime or only method of photography. It has lost out heavily and consistently to the rapid development and refinement (and rampant push and shove by the market) of digital, which excels in speed, spontaneity, convenience, selection and extensive post- work that just about anybody with a modicum of introductory training can accomplish. For professionals in many industries, analogue does not register at all. I can cite advertising agencies, real estate, galleries, retail stock control, warehousing, transport, power utilities etc... what benefits would analogue provide these over the omnipresent option of digital? Analogue is stoked by film. Film is progressively being whittled away each and every year. It is also getting expensive, hence innovative, scientific ways of exploring photography without a camera (very common universities).

It is fortunate that pro-level labs recognise that there is a strong and flowing analogue market — it is important to my lab, which deals with predominantly students of photography, and provide for it. We still have copious C-41 and E6 processing, and exhibition quality RA-4 printing and even master printers beavering away in darkrooms for high level clients. We have a very wide selection of art media on which to print, aside from what is available for traditional darkroom print practitioners.

"How important is analogue?" is a question that could be given chapter and verse over a long period of time. I think APUG members put a lot of personal, individual importance on it — certainly, we are educated, trained, know how to use it and produce our work through it, with no fretting over being able to locate a specific image in 20-30 years time. And that is critical. I am not convinced at all digital has the perpetual longevity to live on 20-30-40 years from now. Many here can vouch for having images in storage dating back possibly to the 1950s (I certainly have). Ilford negatives of me in nappies from the summer of 1961 look cute. What promises does digital have, a generation from now?

I consider analogue to be extremely important for its truth, clarity and sheer beauty, but especially as a lasting, tactile image and a perpetual commodification of one's finest efforts in photography.
 
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Maris

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If you would like a lengthy possibly controversial polemic relevant to this thread I offer the following essay. It was produced to accompany a recent photographic exhibition of mine that guaranteed the absence of any digital input whatsoever. The bits in parenthesis were included in the speech notes for rhetorical effect.

In Defence of Light-Sensitive Materials
The word photography was invented to describe what light sensitive materials deliver: pictures that offer a different class of imaging from painting, drawing, or digital methods. True photographs are pictures made out of light sensitive materials.

The content of such pictures is the visible trace of a direct physical process. This is sharply different to painting, drawing, and digital imaging where picture content is the visible output of processed data. For the record some other imaging methods that do not process data include life casts, death masks, brass rubbings, wax impressions, coal peels, papier-maché moulds, and footprints.

There is a general idleness of thought that assumes any picture beginning with a camera is a photograph. Most casual references to digital pictures as photographs are motivated not by deceit but rather by the innocent or uncritical acceptance of the jargon “digital photography”; a saying which has become so banal and familiar that it largely passes unchallenged; except perhaps here, now, and by me.

I use light sensitive substances to make pictures because of the special relationship between such pictures and their subject matter. The wonder of this special relationship is also available to the aware viewer. For the record some non-photographic means of making realistic looking pictures include photo-realist painting, mezzotint, gravure, offset printing, and analogue and digital electronic techniques. These pictures may resemble photographs but they do not invoke the unique one-step physical bond between subject and true photograph.

The physical (and specifically non-virtual) genesis of pictures made from light-sensitive substances has far-reaching consequences:

Light sensitive materials are utterly powerless in depicting subject matter that does not exist. A true photograph of a thing is an absolute certificate for the existence of that thing; an existence proof at the level of physical evidence. Quite differently, data-based pictures are at best a form of testimony rather than material evidence.

Light-made pictures require that the subject matter and the substances that will depict it have to be in each other’s presence at the same moment. True photographs cannot be fashioned to depict times past. The future is similarly inaccessible. Since true photographs can only begin their existence at the time of exposure in the fleeting present they constitute an absolute certificate that a particular moment in time actually existed. (Paintings, drawings, and digi-pix offer no such inherent guarantee.)

Light-sensitive materials are blind to the imaginary, the topography of dreams, and the shape of hallucinatory visions. The option of making a picture from light sensitive materials is an infallible way of distinguishing delusion from reality. A true photograph authenticates the proposition that the camera really did see something. (Paintings, drawings, and digi-pix offer no such inherent guarantee.)

Light-sensitive substances do not offer discretionary editing or augmentation of subject matter content. There is a one to one correspondence between points in a true photograph and places in real-world subject matter. This correspondence, also known as a transfer function, is immutable if only the subject matter changes. (Paintings, drawings, and digi-pix offer no such inherent guarantee.)

The sole energy input for a true photograph comes from the subject. The internal chemical potential energy of the light-sensitive substances is sufficient to generate all the marks of which a photograph is composed. External energy sources are not obligatory. Remember, photography was invented in, described in, and works perfectly in a world without electricity. (Paintings, drawings, and digi-pix all need external inputs.)

Pictures made from light sensitive materials are different to paintings, drawings, and digital confections in that their authority to describe subject matter comes not from resemblance but from direct physical causation.

It is these unique qualities of true photography, its limitations and its profound certainties, that keep me committed to the medium as an integral and original form.

My light-made pictures are produced one at a time, start to finish, and in full by my own hand. The work flow is mine. No part of it is down to assistants or back-room people toiling to flatter my skills so I will feel good about paying their fee. I’m committed to making pictures out of light-sensitive substances even if these materials cease to be commercially available. I can synthesize them myself.
 

PKM-25

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The last two posts from "Down-Unda"....NICE job gentleman!
 

pbromaghin

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If you would like a lengthy possibly controversial polemic relevant to this thread I offer the following essay. It was produced to accompany a recent photographic exhibition of mine that guaranteed the absence of any digital input whatsoever. The bits in parenthesis were included in the speech notes for rhetorical effect.

In Defence of Light-Sensitive Materials
The word photography was invented to describe what light sensitive materials deliver: pictures that offer a different class of imaging from painting, drawing, or digital methods. True photographs are pictures made out of light sensitive materials.

The content of such pictures is the visible trace of a direct physical process. This is sharply different to painting, drawing, and digital imaging where picture content is the visible output of processed data. For the record some other imaging methods that do not process data include life casts, death masks, brass rubbings, wax impressions, coal peels, papier-maché moulds, and footprints.

There is a general idleness of thought that assumes any picture beginning with a camera is a photograph. Most casual references to digital pictures as photographs are motivated not by deceit but rather by the innocent or uncritical acceptance of the jargon “digital photography”; a saying which has become so banal and familiar that it largely passes unchallenged; except perhaps here, now, and by me.

I use light sensitive substances to make pictures because of the special relationship between such pictures and their subject matter. The wonder of this special relationship is also available to the aware viewer. For the record some non-photographic means of making realistic looking pictures include photo-realist painting, mezzotint, gravure, offset printing, and analogue and digital electronic techniques. These pictures may resemble photographs but they do not invoke the unique one-step physical bond between subject and true photograph.

The physical (and specifically non-virtual) genesis of pictures made from light-sensitive substances has far-reaching consequences:

Light sensitive materials are utterly powerless in depicting subject matter that does not exist. A true photograph of a thing is an absolute certificate for the existence of that thing; an existence proof at the level of physical evidence. Quite differently, data-based pictures are at best a form of testimony rather than material evidence.

Light-made pictures require that the subject matter and the substances that will depict it have to be in each other’s presence at the same moment. True photographs cannot be fashioned to depict times past. The future is similarly inaccessible. Since true photographs can only begin their existence at the time of exposure in the fleeting present they constitute an absolute certificate that a particular moment in time actually existed. (Paintings, drawings, and digi-pix offer no such inherent guarantee.)

Light-sensitive materials are blind to the imaginary, the topography of dreams, and the shape of hallucinatory visions. The option of making a picture from light sensitive materials is an infallible way of distinguishing delusion from reality. A true photograph authenticates the proposition that the camera really did see something. (Paintings, drawings, and digi-pix offer no such inherent guarantee.)

Light-sensitive substances do not offer discretionary editing or augmentation of subject matter content. There is a one to one correspondence between points in a true photograph and places in real-world subject matter. This correspondence, also known as a transfer function, is immutable if only the subject matter changes. (Paintings, drawings, and digi-pix offer no such inherent guarantee.)

The sole energy input for a true photograph comes from the subject. The internal chemical potential energy of the light-sensitive substances is sufficient to generate all the marks of which a photograph is composed. External energy sources are not obligatory. Remember, photography was invented in, described in, and works perfectly in a world without electricity. (Paintings, drawings, and digi-pix all need external inputs.)

Pictures made from light sensitive materials are different to paintings, drawings, and digital confections in that their authority to describe subject matter comes not from resemblance but from direct physical causation.

It is these unique qualities of true photography, its limitations and its profound certainties, that keep me committed to the medium as an integral and original form.

My light-made pictures are produced one at a time, start to finish, and in full by my own hand. The work flow is mine. No part of it is down to assistants or back-room people toiling to flatter my skills so I will feel good about paying their fee. I’m committed to making pictures out of light-sensitive substances even if these materials cease to be commercially available. I can synthesize them myself.

BRAVO!

Maris, we all have seen your repeated posts, over the last couple of years, saying that anything digital was not a true photograph. For all that time I had no idea what you were trying to say. Now, with this post, I and we can finally understand what you mean. I congratulate you for a deeply intellectual argument, well stated and well supported. You will get a lot of argument, but not from me. Excellently structured logic. Every word necessary and not a word wasted. Thank you sir for issuing this challenge to the collective apug intellect.
 

paul_c5x4

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Light sensitive materials are utterly powerless in depicting subject matter that does not exist. A true photograph of a thing is an absolute certificate for the existence of that thing; an existence proof at the level of physical evidence. Quite differently, data-based pictures are at best a form of testimony rather than material evidence.

Light-made pictures require that the subject matter and the substances that will depict it have to be in each other’s presence at the same moment. True photographs cannot be fashioned to depict times past. The future is similarly inaccessible. Since true photographs can only begin their existence at the time of exposure in the fleeting present they constitute an absolute certificate that a particular moment in time actually existed. (Paintings, drawings, and digi-pix offer no such inherent guarantee.)

Light-sensitive materials are blind to the imaginary, the topography of dreams, and the shape of hallucinatory visions. The option of making a picture from light sensitive materials is an infallible way of distinguishing delusion from reality. A true photograph authenticates the proposition that the camera really did see something. (Paintings, drawings, and digi-pix offer no such inherent guarantee.)

I would beg to differ on the subject of "imaginary" imagery using light sensitive materials - The works of Jerry Uelsmann and Philippe Halsman (Dali Atomicus in particular) demonstrate the point. I understand where Maris is coming from, and the desire to differentiate digital imagery from analogue photographs, but image manipulation has been around from the earliest days of photography.

Back to the OP - Why is analogue photography important to me: I do not have the urge, desire, or ability to go hauling digital gear half way up a mountain and watch it fail because it gets wet or a battery packs up. Nor is there a viable and lightweight digital alternative to a 5x4 camera.
 

Regular Rod

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It's as important as pencil and paper, or as paint and canvas, or as chisel and stone, or chisel and wood...

It's a medium. That's it.

RR
 
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