I'm suffering from gainer illiteracy

argentic · Aug 23, 2004

I always thought manufacturers were taking a laugh at us poor consumers by using different names for the same developers. But now I realise that it's probably some trojan virus you get when downloading photography into your brain.

I'm following the different "gainer-threads" with a lot of interest. But I'm losing trac in the midst of all these different tea blends. That's doubtlesly due to my limited intellectual abilities. I would nonetheless like somebody to explain to me once and for all : which blend is which?

Pyro-TEA
ABC Pyro
P-TEA
Pyro-TEA
PMK
Pyrocat-HD
WD2D
Rollo Pyro
CAT-P-TEA
PC-TEA
P-C-TEA
PCP-TEA
Q-P-TEA
PQ-TEA
QP-TEA
PM-TEA
MP-TEA
PG-TEA
PT
DS-10
DS-12
MC-G
MP-G
PG
PQ
PG/PQ
PQ-PG
PC-PG
PC-Glycol
PG-Glycol
PQ-Glycol
MC-Glycol
MQ-Glycol
Amidol/PG
MS Amidol (Microsoft Amidol ??)
Exactol Lux
DiXactol
Sandy King's Pyrocat HD
Mytol
XTol
Etol
Urinol
Prescysol
PD-76
DD-76
E-76
PPPD
PAP
Darjeerling

I probably missed a few. But I can assure you that I DO know what ID-11 is!

GD

psvensson · Aug 23, 2004

Sounds like you have a bit of catching up to do . Rather than trust messageboards, I'd recommend going to the source and getting this year's second issue of Photo Techniques from phototechmag.com. It contains Gainer's article on developers that use glycol and TEA. Also get the Film Developing Cookbook. Both are must-haves for anyone who mixes his or her own.

Of course, the comment about the messageboards is general advice. Make an exception and trust this post.

juan · Aug 23, 2004

It is confusing. A lot of this stuff with TEA (triethanolamine) and PG (propylene glycol) are being made up as we go along - they've never really been published as formulas. Go to unblinkingeye.com and read Patrick Gainer's articles and Sandy King's articles. Sandy created Pyrocat-HD developer.

As for some of the others, MS Amidol is Michael A. Smith's version of the Amidol print developer - go to his site michaelandpaula.com - you will be reading quite a while.

PPPD is a pyro based print developer compounded by Don Miller and first (I believe) published on this site.

I'm exhausted. Someone else take over.
juan

Tom Hoskinson · Aug 23, 2004

Good job, Jay.

One correction: The WD2D developing reagents are Pyrogallol and Metol. WD2D is John Wimberly's creation.

juan · Aug 24, 2004

Yes, Jay, very good job. With regards to Pyro/TEA developers, the Photographers Formulary product is named, by them, Pyrotriethanolamine. It would probably be best to discuss that developer by the entire name to distinguish it from Gainer's Pyro-TEA.
juan

psvensson · Aug 24, 2004

I don't think MC-Glycol and MQ-Glycol exist. Apparently metol doesn't dissolve in glycol. It does dissolve in TEA, according to a previous poster.

Tom Hoskinson · Aug 24, 2004

Then there is the question of Glycin.

I have determined by test that Glycin is not soluble in propylene glycol or ethylene glycol (up to 300 F). Glycin also was not soluble in methanol, isopropanol or ethyl alcohol.

Is Glycin soluble in triethanolamine? I suspect that it is.

I will know the answer by the end of the day.

gainer · Aug 24, 2004

"I'm following the different "gainer-threads" with a lot of interest. But I'm losing trac in the midst of all these different tea blends. That's doubtlesly due to my limited intellectual abilities."

Me too.

sanking · Aug 24, 2004

jdef said:
WD2D is a catechol based staining developer (I think)

Jay

WD2D(+) is pyrogallol based but uses sodium carbonate as the accelerator instead of metaborate as in PMK and Rollo Pyro.

Tom Hoskinson · Aug 24, 2004

jdef said:
MMMMM- Glycin-TEA. Yummm! Is Glycin superadditive with phenidone? Will you try the same proportions of developing agent:TEA as these other formulae? What working characteristics would you expect from a glycin-TEA developer? I look forward to learning your findings.

Me too!

I'm starting with an Ansco-130 type formulation split into 2 parts:

A Solution

Triethanolamine 130ml
Metol 4.4 grams
Hydroquinone 22 grams
Potassium Bromide 11 grams
Glycin 22 grams
Triethanolamine to make 200ml

B Solution

Water 700 ml
Sodium Sulfite 100 grams
Sodium Carbonate 160 grams
Water to 1 liter

Working solution: 50 ml A + 250 ml B + 700 ml water

If this works ok (in other words like Ansco 130), I will try replacing the Hydroquinone (22 grams) with Pyrocatechol (18 grams).

Another obvious experiment is to replace the Sodium Carbonate entirely with TEA.

Tom Hoskinson · Aug 24, 2004

Jay, I plan to dissolve the Glycin in TEA first - if that works, I'll go on from there. By the way, Glycin/TEA should produce results comparable to Agfa 8 film developer. Agfa 8 gives results similar to Rodinal.

Agfa 8
Water (125 F or 52 C) - 50.0 ml
Sodium Sulfite - 12.5 grams
Glycin - 2.0 grams
Potassium Carbonate - 25.0 grams
Water to make - 1.0 liter

I chose Ansco 130 as a starting point because it is one of my favorite print developers. I have a freshly mixed batch of standard Ansco 130 on hand to provide a direct comparison for the TEA version.

Tom Hoskinson · Aug 25, 2004

jdef said:
Far be it from me to question your methods, Tom. A two part, liquid version of Ansco 130 would be fantastic. I hope it works out for you.

I mixed up a batch of 130/TEA last night. I dissolved the Glycin in TEA first - it went into solution between 250F and 260F. Then I added the Metol and Hydroquinone - both dissolved with no problems around 250F. I added the KBr last and had to stir for a long time at 260F in order to dissolve all of it. In the next batch, I'll add the KBr to the working developer as a percentage solution (which is what I normally do anyway).

Now I need to test the stuff and see if it performs like the original Ansco 130 formula.

sanking · Aug 25, 2004

juan said:
Yes, Jay, very good job. With regards to Pyro/TEA developers, the Photographers Formulary product is named, by them, Pyrotriethanolamine. It would probably be best to discuss that developer by the entire name to distinguish it from Gainer's Pyro-TEA.
juan

Yes, the only thing wrong with Jay's list is that it does not cover the other 50-100 permutations of the Pees and Tees that are about to be reported. We have already seen Cat Pee Tea and Pee Pee Tea. What is next?

The scenario reminds me a bit of a current computer commercial in which a woman interroagates the man and starts the questioning with, "Where were you next Thursday?"

Pat, what have you unleashed on an unsuspecting world if not unmoderated chaos?

Sandy

gainer · Aug 25, 2004

And to think, I was just trying to find a way to keep stock solutions a long time. WHAT HAVE I DONE?

Ian Grant · Aug 25, 2004

Thank god I've stuck to X-tol (replenished its a few years old now) and my good old Ceylon or Assam tea as a processing aid.

Pyrocat HD lurks in my darkroom and intial trials were interesting but I've lost the negs !!!!, but when the pressures on to get work out and on the wall for an exhibition experimenting and trialling a new developer goes out the window.

argentic · Aug 25, 2004

jdef said:
Ha! Yes, the possible permutations seem endless, which I find very exciting. Surely, a few top performers will eventually rise to the top of this ever growing list, in true Darwinian fashion. I'm enjoying seeing old, established formulae adapted (mutated) to this methodology, as in Tom's Amidol and Ansco 130 variations. It only looks like chaos if you're standing too close to it! This is evolution at work.

Are we filling the gap of shutdown Kodak&Co analog laboratories? AFAIK science is about experimenting in a controlled methodical way, and publishing results so the whole scientific community can advance. I don't know about the controlled methodss. But all this communication looks a lot like scientific exchange of information

Gilbert

Tom Hoskinson · Aug 25, 2004

jdef said:
MMMMM- Glycin-TEA. Yummm! Is Glycin superadditive with phenidone? Will you try the same proportions of developing agent:TEA as these other formulae? What working characteristics would you expect from a glycin-TEA developer? I look forward to learning your findings.

I would expect a Glycin/TEA combination to behave like Agfa 8 (formula posted earlier in this thread). In other words, I expect it to behave much like Rodinal.

Crawley used the combination of Glycin, Hydroquinone and Phenidone in his FX-11 formulation and the combination does appear to be superadditive.

I'll let you know what happens.

gainer · Aug 28, 2004

You would find that Pyrocat HD with enough sulfite would give no stain. Pyrogallol will also be stainless with enough sulfite. More and more sulfite is required as you go from one to another of those. The tanning action is more difficult to get rid of.

Also, in each case you would find that the superadditivity between metol or phenidone and these agents will increase to a point as sulfite is added. When you want both stain and synergism, add as little sulfite as possible.

sanking · Aug 28, 2004

jdef said:
Thanks Patrick. That's the point I'm trying to find (stain and synergism), and have with PCP-TEA, but haven't found with QP-TEA, even though I'm adding only about 1/16 teaspoon of sulfite to 500ml of developer. The thing is, I don't seem to get any stain, even without sulfite with QP-TEA.

I am confused with all of the new names but assume that QP-TEA is hydroquinone + phenidone? If so I am fairly surprised that you are getting any significant developer activity at all with this combination. The threshold of development pH for hydroquinone is 10.0, and TEA gives a working pH of less than 9.5 in all of the formulas I have tried it in. Threshold of development is slightly lower (pH 9.5) with pyrocatechin, and much lower (pH 8.0) with pyrogallol. What I suspect may be happening is that the primary development activity is being carried out by phenidone and the hydroquinone is just barely entering into the mix. The could explain the lack of stain as phenidone does not stain.

On two occasions I substituted hydroquinone for pyrocatechin in the Pyrocat-HD formula and got lots of stain, in fact much more than I wanted, and there appeared to be even more synergism between hydroquinone and phenidone than with pyrocatechin and phenidone. I was not satisfied with the experiments for various reasons and concluded there was little if anything to be gained by the substitution so abandoned the work.

Sandy

gainer · Aug 28, 2004

If you have a neg you can sacrifice, bleach out the silver with Farmer's reducer and see if anything remains. The stain images of each, catechol, pyrogallol and hydroquinone are different colors.

Another approach is to bleach a non-stained silver neg with rehalogenating bleach (same as would be used for sulfide sepia toning) and redevelop in a mixture of hydroquinone and carbonate solution. Proportions are not critical. This should tell you what color to look for. I have found it mkes a pretty good intensifier.

gainer · Aug 28, 2004

Sandy,

The pH threshold of hydroquinone with either metol or phenidone and a little bit of sulfite is much lower than the pH threshold of hydroquinone alone. I can't imagine phenidone doing all the work without being itself oxidized. When that happens, the solution turns pink to red. If you try leaving the catechol out of Pyrocat, I doubt that the activity will be much. Same with hydroquinone and phenidone. I know that would be true for my solutions, where I use a Q ratio of about 40:1.

There is little we can say about a synergistic mixture by looking at the behavior of individual components. Most people will say that phenidone is not much affected by bromide. The graph of superadditivity of phenidone and hydroquinone in "Theory of the Photographic Process" shows that the combination is greatly affected by bromide content. All I'm saying is that the proof of the pudding is in the eating. You know I didn't coin that phrase. My great-great-great grandmother might have, I don't know.

I think there should be some stain, as you saw in your trial. I'm not going to say anyone will like its color. It won't hurt my feelings if no one ever uses it. I only use it as an intensifier because I have the ingredients handy. I have used PMK for the same purpose, but it's more expensive and maybe a little more toxic.

tob · Aug 30, 2004

I mixed a batch of Q-P-TEA as per Patrick's formula (10g Hydroquinone, 0.2g Phenidone, 100ml TEA) and tried it on a roll of Tri-X. To be on the safe side I used a 1+30 dilution and developed the roll for 17.5 minutes at 21°C. The negatives do have a brown stain that looks rather prominent to me but then I can't compare it to negs developed with Pyro or Catechol. Grain is reduced, the negatives are sharp and do print well on grade 2.

Does anybody have dilutions/times to compare? HP5+ anyone?

Tobias

I'm suffering from gainer illiteracy

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