I'm going to try my hand at developing colour 4x5 and 8x10

I currently develop my 8x10 b&w in beseler drums on a unicolor electrical roller one sheet at a time and have got amazing results. What I’m thinking is just doing the same process with the color film using the correct C-41 chemicals.
As for controlling temperature I was thinking of doing what I do with my B&W process. I.e. for my B&W I get the chems to 20 deg (Box says 6 1/2 minutes) so I assume the temperature will increase (due to living in a hot climate) so I cut the time to 5 1/2 minutes.
With color I’m thinking put the developer in at 39 degrees and add 1/2 minute to the developing time (4 minutes) due to a drop in temperature and then play with the times until I get it right.
What do you guys think???

Neil

The first time is scary. Then it gets easier. Basically once temperature controlled, color film development is almost as easy as black & white film development.

C-41 process is fun. As SG says the first time or two is a little anxious, but with experience it is rewarding. You can try your idea and see if you like the results. I measured temperature drop in my 1 liter working bottles and it was about 1 degree F per minute, roughly .7 deg C per minute. So during a 4 minute development cycle you might lose 3 degrees C, approximately, probably more because the drum surface area is larger than a 1 liter storage bottle. Another idea is to pour the developer in at 40.5 deg C and see how it goes.

If you are not using a tempering bath, or some kind of temperature control, your procedure needs to be refined over time. Good luck and let's see your results!

Do a "dry run" with water. Measure temperature of water before and after development. Adjust as necessary. Make sure the process is repeatable. Keep notes, especially related to ambient temperature.

You could try applying heat to the spinning drum with a hair dryer or some such to help maintain temperature.

bvy said:

Do a "dry run" with water. Measure temperature of water before and after development. Adjust as necessary. Make sure the process is repeatable. Keep notes, especially related to ambient temperature.

You could try applying heat to the spinning drum with a hair dryer or some such to help maintain temperature.

Click to expand...

A water bath can take care of the problem of maintaining a constant temperature. Hence the choice of Jobo equipment by some.

So I have just bought a new Chamonix 4x5 45F2 as my old 4x5 a Wisner technical is now an ornament in my house in Phuket Thailand. Anyway the reason for the 4x5 among other things is to be able to shoot sheet film when I travel rather than lugging my Chamonix 8x10 all over the place. I have the MOD54 developing tanks so I will initially shoot some 4x5 sheet film and experiment developing color film with that. I love the idea of doing a dummy run just with water and time in both the MOD54 tank and also with the Beseller 8x10 drums. As for maintaining temperature with the MOD54 I guess I can sit the tanks in a bucket of hot water in-between shakes. As for the 8x10 drums. they only hold 1 1/4 ounces of chemicals at a time so I might have to add the chemicals at 41 degrees as Wilmer stated and then check and see if its still around 38 degrees...............can anyone say how hot you can go up to (in other words would it be okay to initially add the developer at 43 degrees C) ??
I currently have some 4x5 Etkar at home so that will be great to try out first before using 8x10 sheets as a guinie pig $$$$$$
I will try the dry run first and report back when I get home in two weeks time

Neil

A pre-warm of the tanks (before adding reels) using water above 40C makes a big difference.

Yes back when I was doing RA4 processing in drums the water personal to get the drum to temperature was an important step. Should work with film too I would think.

Just thinking out load;
I watched two youtube yesterday with someone developing C41 with the same kit that i have coming. The first guy went from developer to Bliz wash then stabiliser . The second guy washed with water after each step..........which is the right way??
Also after the stabiliser step is it necessary to wash for like 10 minutes and then add a wetting agent like what I do with my B&W?

Neil

An acetic acid after the developer is a good idea, although not absolutely necessary. A wash between blix and stabiliser is necessary, but that's the last wash. The film is then left to dry. If for some reason the film needs to be rewashed, at some point, then stabiliser needs to be reapplied.

Official Kodak C-41 process has no stop bath or rinse baths. I use both. A dilute acetic acid stop for 1 min 30 sec after developer and a plain water rinse for 3 min 00 sec after stop, bleach and fix. All at 100 deg F.

C41 process is about the shortest developing time in the business. With this process it is possible to over develop quite easily if you make a small time error, apart from ensuring you do the first bath really correctly, time wise; you should be alright no matter what methods and apparatus you use to process C41

One of my changes to help me with C41, is to run a 2% Acetic acid stop bath after the first bath, this stops development virtually instantly, from then on, you can do the other process steps at your leisure, so to speak.

By adding a stop bath at the same time every time you do C41, you should be able to maintain developing consistency from each and every lot of film(s) you develop.

Mick.

Mick Fagan said:

One of my changes to help me with C41, is to run a 2% Acetic acid stop bath after the first bath, this stops development virtually instantly, from then on, you can do the other process steps at your leisure, so to speak.



Mick.

Click to expand...

Mick
I'm struggling to getr my head around that statement........do you mean adding stop after the dev or after the wash before the dev??

Here is my C-41 process, all at 100deg F:

min:sec
5:00 pre-warm/pre-wet bath, plain water
3:15 developer
1:30 dilute acetic stop bath
3:00 rinse bath, plain water
6:30 bleach
3:00 rinse bath, plain water
6:30 fix
3:00 rinse bath, plain water
1:30 final rinse/tank rinse
Squeegee
Hang to dry

All chemicals, except stop bath, are Kodak Flexicolor per the list by bvy in the sticky. Sourced from Unique Photo in New Jersey, US.

Neil, pretty simple. If you follow Wilmarcolmaging, you should be alright.

I don't pre-rinse. I've never seen a commercial film process that did, doesn't mean they are wrong, bad, better, or whatever. Just that, whatever you do, if it works, keep doing exactly that and you should be alright.

I do the first bath of 3'15", followed immediately by my stop bath for around 1'00", followed by a wash for 3'30", Bleach for 6'30", wash for 3'30", Fix for 6'30", wash for 3'30", with a stabiliser bath last for 2'00".

Have a look here, page 32 if it doesn't link directly.

http://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/uat/files/wysiwyg/pro/chemistry/z131.pdf

Mick.

Thank you everyone for all your help and advise. I will be back home in 2 weeks time (Currently on an Oil Rig in Nigeria). When I get home I am going to be taking my new Chamonix 45n2 to Japan for a week and shoot some 4x5 Ektar trying to capture the Autumn colours of Osaka, Kyoto and Nara. When I get home I will try my first C-41 developing
Pictures to follow

Neil

Mick Fagan said:

Neil, pretty simple. If you follow Wilmarcolmaging, you should be alright.

I don't pre-rinse. I've never seen a commercial film process that did, doesn't mean they are wrong, bad, better, or whatever. Just that, whatever you do, if it works, keep doing exactly that and you should be alright.

I do the first bath of 3'15", followed immediately by my stop bath for around 1'00", followed by a wash for 3'30", Bleach for 6'30", wash for 3'30", Fix for 6'30", wash for 3'30", with a stabiliser bath last for 2'00".

Have a look here, page 32 if it doesn't link directly.

http://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/uat/files/wysiwyg/pro/chemistry/z131.pdf

Mick.

Click to expand...

I use the pre-rinse but believe it is actually to bring the tank and film to the correct temperature.

I believe if you pre-rinse is used at a consistent temperature, develop with chemicals at a consistent temperature followed by a stop bath you will get consistent results.

I have thought of buying some Kodak test films and adjusting my development to get the best result. However, I do not print RA4 but scan. My scanner can compensate for a range of error so I am not too concerned.

Bottom line, do the development the same way every time and if the results are good keep doing it.

My first Large Format color film shot with my Chamonix 4x5 and developed in the kitchen with some help from my beautiful wife Nuk

Well done!

For your first C41 effort, very well done. Not that hard was it

Assuming you are after good colour; everything I have seen from you is first class, may I suggest that you consider removing some green from the image. How you do that electronically, I am not sure. If this was a wet RA4 print, then I would probably be adding a few of units of Magenta to remove the green cast I am seeing. If I look at the top of the hair, the less lit parts of her blue top, both are green(ish).

Her skin tones look wonderful when viewed through a Magenta Kodak Print Viewing Filter, (this is the same as removing green from the image).

Mick.

Mick Fagan said:

For your first C41 effort, very well done. Not that hard was it

Assuming you are after good colour; everything I have seen from you is first class, may I suggest that you consider removing some green from the image. How you do that electronically, I am not sure. If this was a wet RA4 print, then I would probably be adding a few of units of Magenta to remove the green cast I am seeing. If I look at the top of the hair, the less lit parts of her blue top, both are green(ish).

Her skin tones look wonderful when viewed through a Magenta Kodak Print Viewing Filter, (this is the same as removing green from the image).

Mick.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the feedback Mick............I will check and see what I can do when i get back to KL after my trip to Japan

Neil

bvy said:

Do a "dry run" with water. Measure temperature of water before and after development. Adjust as necessary. Make sure the process is repeatable. Keep notes, especially related to ambient temperature.

You could try applying heat to the spinning drum with a hair dryer or some such to help maintain temperature.

Click to expand...

Yes - this special method I wanted to advice too - but I possible couldn't explain it better. So we have to know with this method it isn't correct in concern of c-41 specifications because you are outside of reguar temperatures.
C-41 chemistry need exact 37,8 degree celsius during full time of the process :
(3'min.15"sec.).
The tollerance of spread given is very very hard (+- 0,3 dergree celsius as I remember correct - may be it is indeed 0,2 degree).
Therefore some recomanded temperature control via machines.
But if you are allone (without a machine) you may use a temperature as aritmetric mean.
Pls. don't allowe the chems to come more out of this temperature.
It is just a hart issue today because this standard from temperature with c41 is designed to the advantage of labs. (workflow on high level in regard of shorter development).
I know a lot of old process standards with lower temperatures.This would be much easier to handle todays without temperature control.
Notice : If you have a big volume of developer (for example 160liters) the lost of temperature is a very little within some
minutes (may be within a limit of 0,05 degree) so it isn't a real hart work just with old fashioned lab machines to regulate temperature.
The same is with drum developement (low volume) and less temperature differences (for example room temperature 24 degree celsius - and the use of old fashioned processes - as in the past - with 26 degree developer temperature).
But in the northern hemisphere you will have no chance with a process due to a need of 37,8 degree.
So - OP : try this (to me best) method if you can't get any kind of automatic temperature control.
May be - I just can't know now - but may be this method would also be nearly OK to PE. And then it is realy OK !!!
As I remember PE refered to the concern of couplers and the design in regard to the need of these exact temperatures of modern c41 or in opposite direction.So it goes not only to the issues of time of developement.If this would go so easy you may adjust the time of development just with a corection factor (like in bw) in concern of developer temperature.
Some advices of Rollei Chems (Fujihunt derivates) went in this direction (converting time tables) with 30 /degree celsius, 25 degree celsius.
But also some warned to get color shifts with c41 films and instabile colors as a possible result of wrong temperatures.
(long time instability issues - after years not after month or weeks...)

with regards

MattKing said:

A pre-warm of the tanks (before adding reels) using water above 40C makes a big difference.

Click to expand...

Yes - that is exact the problem it is never the same condition and soon you are outside recomanded temperature (+ - 0,2 degree celsius)
By the time it is hart to find the best thermometer. Some may show 0,2 degree
celsius scale. Spezial lab thermometer indeed have a 0,1 degree scale. (with tollerance of 0,5 degree celsius....!
So you have to use electronic stuff to normal pricing (tolerance + - 0,3 degree)..!
Or high tech stuff (tollerance 0,01 degree celsius ) ~ $ 125,- ....

with regards

The result may be like video in NTSC !
N.ever T.he S.ame C.olor