I'm going large..Chamonix 4x5

Grainy · Aug 9, 2011

After months of thinking and dreaming I just could not resist anymore. So today I ordered the brand new Chamonix 045N-2.

This is my first view camera, before I haven't used larger than 6x6cm.

Where should I start?

I got a few weeks of waiting before it arrives, so I will spend it wisely so I'm ready to shoot when it arrives. The only thing I need to buy now is a really good normal lens and some film. Film choice I guess will be easy since I know what I like. When it comes to lenses I have read a bit about Rodenstock Sironar-S 150mm f/5.6.

Since I've spent a lot of $ on buying large format camera I want a lens that gives me the quality that is possible to get out of this film size. Will the Sorinar-s deliver?

How is 5.6 at largeformat, will it give me nice bokeh and shallow dof on portraits or do I need to buy a longer lens? I don't want to start with a too tight lens since I will use it for many different things, but it's important that I choose a lens that gives me nice bokeh and shallow dof on portraits.

And I want to read a lot to suck up all the information I can, any blogs etc. you recommend? I've read Ansel Adams the camera, the negative and the print so far.

M.A.Longmore · Aug 9, 2011

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Hi Grainy,

Congratulations !

Get a copy of " Using The View Camera " by Steve Simmons.

Ron
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Jeff Bannow · Aug 9, 2011

Congrats! It's a great camera.

Do you mean the Apo Sironar-S 150mm? If so, it's probably overkill for a beginner, and very hard to find used. (I've been looking for one for 2 months now ....) There are a lot of lenses in 150mm that can be bought for $200-300, and will provide you with great performance.

f5.6 should be fine for shallow DOF, but for portraits I would say something longer would be better. A 150mm lens is about equivalent to an 80mm on 6x6 / 50mm on 35mm. I would look for a 210mm-300mm instead.

BetterSense · Aug 9, 2011

4x5 is not large.

jp498 · Aug 9, 2011

You can't go wrong with most of the rodenstock/schneider/fuji/nikkor lens options. 135-150mm for general purpose, 210 for portrait type of use.

You'll need film holders, film, something to keep the film holders clean and dust free in, and if you develop film yourself, the goods to do 4x5. Some people use tray, jobo, nikor tank, combiplan tank, mod_photographic, taco, etc... Lots of ways.

You may want either a loupe or reading glasses, and either a dark cloth or popup hood to shield the groundglass when viewing outdoor. I'm not sure about that camera, but some cameras have the groundglass exposed when they are folded up, allowing it to be damaged. Canham makes a nice plastic insert to protect the groundglass in these situations.

Grainy · Aug 9, 2011

Thanks

I will buy that book, Longmore. A book about using it sounds like what I need.

Yes, I meant Apo Sironar-S 150. Why is it an overkill? I'm a beginner in view cameras, but not in photography. Is the lens different to use compared to others? I don't want to buy a lens that I will exchange for a better one in the nearest future.

After a bit of reading it sounds like the 150mm is good to start with since it's versatile, I like to shoot both landscape and portraits while I'm learning to use the camera. I want to buy a really good normal lens now, and later a really good longer lens and at last a really good wide lens. But maybe for the first 6 months or year I will stick to only one lens.

Rick A · Aug 9, 2011

When you said large, I pictured 11x14 or larger. Oh well, 150mm is a good all around lens, for portraits I prefer 210-250mm, and 105-135mm for landscapes and architecture.

Jeff Bannow · Aug 9, 2011

The apo-sironar costs 3x as much as a regular 150mm, and for most situations won't provide any distinguishable difference from any other modern 150mm. All of the manufacturers made really top notch lenses, and any would be excellent enough that you won't feel the need to "upgrade" later.

Grainy · Aug 9, 2011

I ordered three film holders, Linhof lens board and a folding viewer ( http://www.chamonixviewcamera.com/_images//viewas.jpg )
Guess I should buy more film holders later, but I need to save more money first.

I develop my own 35 and 120 film in Paterson tanks, but I'm not sure how I will develop sheet films. Paper copies will be made with my Durst 1200L. Guess it depends on if I want to develop one and one sheet or many in one batch? If I use trays then I don't need to buy anything since I have some small trays to develop paper in.

Will my "normal" cable release work on this kind of lens? I have cable release for my other cameras (Rolleiflex, Olympus OM etc), they all use the same.

vyshemirsky · Aug 9, 2011

It's exactly the same camera as my main setup. Gorgeous piece of kit for field work. Really lightweight and flexible. Welcome to large format photography, I am sure you will find it very liberating experience. I have long forgotten how difficult it was to use a medium format camera with all the limitations it had.

I totally agree with what jp498 said above. Your camera has a ground glass protector, so don't worry about that. Use a cheap magnifying glass as a loupe to begin with, you don't need a $200 loupe right away. I have tried at least three ways of developing my film, and ended up with a Jobo 2500 series tank; it is not as expensive as their expert drums and works perfectly. Don't bother with a taco method - you will scratch your film and waste a lot of time and money. Ziplock bags are the way to keep dust away from your film holders.

Lens wise, jp498 perfectly expressed my opinion. I would only add that eventually you might want a wider angle lens too, something like 90mm. Schneider Super Angulons are quite cheap, and still very good optics.

Looking forward to see your images. Good luck!

2F/2F · Aug 9, 2011

Looking at the longest sides of the frames, a 180mm on LF is nearly identical to a 50mm on SF.

Looking at the shortest sides of the frames, a 210mm on LF is nearly identical to a 50mm on SF.

Looking at the diagonals of the frames, a 180mm LF lens is very close to a 50mm on SF.

So, while 150mm is the closest common focal length to the definition of "normal" on LF, it really does not feel much like a 50 feels on SF. Looking at the diagonal AOV, a 150mm on LF is more like a 40mm on SF. That is a notable difference. (FWIW, truly "normal" on SF is about 43mm, not 50mm. 50mm has simply become "standard.")

Just something to consider. If you want the closest lens to a 50mm on SF, get a 180mm. If you want the closest common lens to "normal," get a 150. Even closer to normal (almost exact, actually), but less common, would be a 165mm lens.

IME, the most common "standard" (as in "go-to") lens among 4x5 monorail shooters is a 210. The diagonal is like a 55mm SF lens, and the image circle is usually bigger than a 150. Yet they are still relatively small, light, fast, and affordable. I like their slightly tighter AOV for most staged shots (i.e. not hand held or landscapes).

Jeff Bannow · Aug 9, 2011

Btw - I was offered 2 different apo sironar-s 150mm lenses for $1100 each. You can get a good 150mm for $250.

vyshemirsky · Aug 9, 2011

Yep. cable release is a standard, and shutter is a part of your lens, not your camera.

Grainy · Aug 9, 2011

Will an Agfa 8x loupe do the job? I have one for looking at negatives.

Ok, thanks Jeff. I guess that if the lens is already hard to find and cost 3x compared to others, then this lens will be a good investment if I want to sell it again in let's say 5 or 10 years.

Yeah, I guess 4x5 ain't large for you guys But it sure is large for me who thinks 6x6cm is quite large.

Grainy · Aug 9, 2011

2F/2F: On 35 cameras I love the 35mm and the 85mm. If the 150mm "feels" more like 40mm it's quite close to the 35mm wich I like. Sounds like 210mm would be the lens I choose to buy next year.

seananton · Aug 9, 2011

That's right, for those of us using wet collodion 5x4 is small, 10x8 and 12x10 are medium format, 22x18 and over is large format.

Seán

2F/2F · Aug 9, 2011

For a 35mm equivalent, I would go with 135mm (or a 127mm Ektar if hand holding, since they are so light and cheap, and you don't need movements if doing that). If you like 35mm on SF, the 150 may seem a tad bit too tight for you. However, as 150 lenses go, there is generally not a lot of movement available, and 135's will generally have a little bit less to use. However, you'll get decent image circles of almost 230mm with the 135mm Fujinon-Ws or Kodak Wide Field Ektars. That is a larger circle than what you will get from many 150 lenses.

Take the Schneider Symmar line, for example (a pretty standard example of "A Large Format Lens"):

135mm Symmar has image circle of 190mm.
150mm Symmar has an image circle of 210mm.
180mm Symmar has an image circle of 255mm.
210mm Symmar has an image circle of 297mm.

That is why a 210 is often preferred by those using healthy amounts of movement...and why a 135 generally is not. But those two I listed are some exceptions that will allow you to use the 135 focal length, but still get almost 40mm more image circle than with a Symmar 150.

Tim Boehm · Aug 9, 2011

That's a good camera. Get the best lenses you can afford. The Apo Sironar S lenses are the best imho. The Fujinon Compacts are also great, as are thier A lenses. Their 240A is simply wonderful. Although you're starting with a 4x5, don't be surprised if you become interested in the larger formats. In that regard, I'd suggest you get lenses that cover at least an 8x10 when possible. Anyway, best wishes....

Grainy · Aug 10, 2011

since the shutter is in the lens, is there lenses with different sync speeds? Will use it in studio with flash, so fast sync is good.

Jeff Bannow · Aug 10, 2011

Large format shutters sync at all speeds.

eclarke · Aug 10, 2011

Grainy said:
Thanks

I will buy that book, Longmore. A book about using it sounds like what I need.

Yes, I meant Apo Sironar-S 150. Why is it an overkill? I'm a beginner in view cameras, but not in photography. Is the lens different to use compared to others? I don't want to buy a lens that I will exchange for a better one in the nearest future.

After a bit of reading it sounds like the 150mm is good to start with since it's versatile, I like to shoot both landscape and portraits while I'm learning to use the camera. I want to buy a really good normal lens now, and later a really good longer lens and at last a really good wide lens. But maybe for the first 6 months or year I will stick to only one lens.

The S and N versions are both good as is the Nikkor W 150, I have all three as well as a Super Symmar XL 150 and an Sironar which was the previous model to the Sironar S and N.. You won't go wrong...

Willie Jan · Aug 10, 2011

Be aware that the longer the lens is, the more bellow extension you will need.
So when you buy a 210mm lens, it is 210mm at infinity, but the closer you get (head only shot), the more extension you will need. keep that in mind!

philosomatographer · Aug 10, 2011

Welcome to the wonderful world of large format! May you survive the journey intact When I first started out, I almost gave up, because it was so difficult to realise my vision with this set of tools. Took me about 6 months to get comfortable. My Mamiya seemed so easy-to-use by comparison! Two pieces of advice I want to give you (possibly contrary to the some of the advice in this thread):

Do not worry about lens quality. Coming from small and medium format, you have no idea how much the larger film area compensates for lens / film quality. My $50, 1950s convertible Symmar that originally came with my camera 60 years ago beats the pants off any lens I have ever used on Medium format when it comes to, say, resolution and distortion (i.e. looking at prints of the same size). See my image below (the 'worst-case' scenario I could find to post).
Do not buy lenses that cover larger format (8x10) for your wooden 4x5in, they will either be way too large and heavy, or they will have dim f/8 or f/9 apertures, which is no fun starting out. Get nice and small f/5.6 lenses in the focal lengths you prefer (or course, going over 210mm, the f/5.6 lenses do get large - then you may want to look at the brilliant Fuji or Nikkor ~300mm ~f/9 types.

Twice bitten, not shy

(1950s convertible Schneider Symmar 150mm at f/5.6)

The image above (a 1:1 Macro with a 1950s single coated non-macro lens shot wide open) was printed in the darkroom to 16x20in, and was shot on "grainy" Ilford HP5+ pushed to ISO1600 sensitivity in development. Even in medium format you'd start to see serious grain.

Even "small" (4x5in) large format offers imaging capabilities beyond belief the first time you manage to get it all together - don't get sucked into buying an APO-Sironar-S. It offers better resolution, yes, but at this size, unless you're printing murals, it simply doesn't matter. Take the $900 and go on a photographic road trip rather, or spend it on your darkroom. I spent $900 on my tripod instead, best photographic investment I ever made).

P.S. Yes, I also own a modern Schneider APO-Symmar 150mm, and the only differences I can observe compared to my beloved 1950s one, is that it has much better coatings (flare-resistance for shooting into the light) and worse out-of-focus rendition.

Have fun!

BetterSense · Aug 10, 2011

Do not worry about lens quality. Coming from small and medium format, you have no idea how much the larger film area compensates for lens / film quality

This is correct. To a first approximation, lenses do not matter in large format. When I first got my speed graphic, the only lens I had was an uncoated, unbranded 135mm enlarging lens. The images still had an immediate impact of quality. The reason people even care about expensive large format lenses is that the film actually does allow the extra Nth amount of quality to be extracted, where with smaller formats it would just be a waste of time. In other words, in LF, the lens is actually becomes your limiting factor, but the limit is still higher quality than smaller formats. If people applied the same standards and expectations to LF as they do smaller formats, the nicer LF lenses probably wouldn't even exist.

RPippin · Aug 10, 2011

Congratulations on a wise choice for a field camera. I own a used Chamoniox 4X5, probably one of the older models I purchased from someone on APUG about three years ago and love it. I too shot medium format and later switched to large format about 4 years ago and haven't looked back. As a matter of fact, I will be selling all but one of my kits since I don't use them anymore. As far as lenses go, a basic 210mm is good advice. I also own an older Apo 180mm that I seem to use more than any other at this time. Half the fun is scouting around for older lenses to add to your collection. Dagors and Ektars can still be had out there for a decent price as well as the ocasional petzval. Consider the BTZS system for developing. I tried everything else before bitting the bullet and buying the tubes. I can't afford a JOBO system, I used one for about a week once and loved it but for the money the BTZS can't be beat. Have fun, I know you will enjoy it. P.S., pick up a Berlback tripod (I know, I can't spell) to go with the camera.

I'm going large..Chamonix 4x5

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