I'm doing something wrong, but what?

I'm a beginner in film developing (as some of you know), but have had success overall. But tonight I missed the mark completely it seems. I'm hoping some of you can 'analyze' what I'm doing, and help from there.

Here's what I used, all at 74°F in a Paterson System 4 2-roll tank:

Film: Fortepan 100
Developer: HC-110 Dilution H - (1:63) = 6ml dev + 394ml ambient water to make 400ml for one roll
Stop Bath: Water at ambient air temp (same as developer and fixer)
Fixer: Photographer's Formulary TF-4 Rapid Fixer
Wetting Agent: 1 drop of Dawn (Fairy for those in the UK) dish soap

Using the Mass Dev Chart for Fortepan 100 in HC-110, it says Dil B (1:31) for 4.5 mins at 68°F. Since I was using Dil H, I doubled the time (9 mins), that adjusted that to 7 mins based on the time/temp chart on Covington's HC-110 page. I think that my math is correct there. Before I started, I tested my fixer, and the film leader went clear in 14.4 seconds, but I figured a 45 second fix was absurdly short, and the bottle says 3-4 minutes, so I split the difference and went with 3:30.

And my workflow:

1 min prewash with acclimated tap water
7:00 develop time with agitation for 1st 30 seconds, then 5 inversions (10 seconds) every 60 seconds
2x 30 seconds stop bath of water, continuous agitation
1:3 Fixer for 3:30, 30 second agitate at start, and 30 second agitate for last 30 seconds
4 minute rinse which included a couple of dump & fills
Dump and refill with one drop wetting agent with continuous agitation for roughly 30 seconds

Almost nothing came out. I could see two frames (of 36), and when I held a flashlight up to the strip as it was drying, I could make out a couple of more, but very faint. Ironically, the two that seem to be the best were the two I forgot to focus on (Rollei 35), so they probably aren't any good anyway.

Of the rest of the images, they were taken outdoors in bright (Florida) sunshine and indoors in moderate lighting. The indoor shots I had doubts whether or not they would be close to properly exposed (expecting underexposure), but I was certain the outdoor shots would be on target or slightly over exposed.

This was the first roll through the new-to-me Rollei 35, and I guess there is a chance it is a fault with the camera, but then I wouldn't have expected any shots to come out. The few that did were consecutive on the roll, with two being outdoors (bright but somewhat overcast), and one being indoors (very low light).

I've read that a scanned negative is no help in trying to diagnose a negative problem, so here's what they look like using my tablet as a light-table;

Hi,

looks like total underdevelopment and possible underexpose.
How do you meter the exposure - what was f stop and shutter speed for those frames? How old is the film?

EDIT: I see comment about dilution H - but I think 7min is too little. Try with dilution B.

Also - do you have air in developer tank - does the fluid flows and mix ok? Maybe your tank is full to the top (this is bad)?

If you did not lock the lens out properly the shutter may not fire.

Or

The shutter needs relube

Remove back and fire the shutter 100 times with the lens extended and locked looking at a bright light through the shutter opening.

Lastly if the film rebate nomenclature is good it is almost certainly the camera. Allways inspect the rebate...

Quick question - what's the film rebate? Is that the leader, or where the sprocket holes are?

Film is outdated, but by how much I'm not sure. I have developed some from the same group that was ASA400, and that was fine.

> Paterson System 4 2-roll tank

Did you put both rolls inside (one empty)? Maybe roll went up during development and was not in the chemistry all the time, only on the beginning?

The rebate is the clear bit around the edges of the frames.
Many films have brand info and frame numbers in the edges, and those will always appear if the film is correctly developed even if there's a camera problem. So it can be helpful in ruling out whether a problem lies with development or exposure
But not all films have this - no idea if Fortepan ever did.

Ok, I fired the shutter close to 100 times at various apertures and shutter speeds. All seems fine. Light was seen at each firing. In a way, I was hoping it was the camera, as I could return it. I started a roll of color (fresh) earlier, and I'll burn through it in the morning and drop it off to be developed, and see how that goes.

The film used above expired Mar 2002, which is decently old, but like I said, I've developed some from the same group successfully. It was a sealed roll.

darkosaric said:

Hi,

looks like total underdevelopment and possible underexpose.
How do you meter the exposure - what was f stop and shutter speed for those frames? How old is the film?

EDIT: I see comment about dilution H - but I think 7min is too little. Try with dilution B.

Also - do you have air in developer tank - does the fluid flows and mix ok? Maybe your tank is full to the top (this is bad)?

Click to expand...

The two frames that "came out", shutter speed was way slow at 1/15, aperture I don't recall. They were quick shots of a car that drove into a sewer repair ditch, and I just grabbed the camera and fired as I was driving by.

The other shots I used the camera's metering. While I don't recall most of the settings, the frame 2 frames before these two I could make out my daughter and her friend in the pool, and it was very bright sunshine, and IIRC, it was at f/8, 1/250 or 1/500. The scan shows it as nearly black.

As for the tank, it's a 2 roll tank, so it can hold 580 ml+, but I only used 400ml, and the fluids were flowing fine based on the sound and feel.

darkosaric said:

> Paterson System 4 2-roll tank

Did you put both rolls inside (one empty)? Maybe roll went up during development and was not in the chemistry all the time, only on the beginning?

Click to expand...

Yes, both rolls were in the tank, the roll with film was on the bottom, and the empty roll on top.

pdeeh said:

The rebate is the clear bit around the edges of the frames.
Many films have brand info and frame numbers in the edges, and those will always appear if the film is correctly developed even if there's a camera problem. So it can be helpful in ruling out whether a problem lies with development or exposure
But not all films have this - no idea if Fortepan ever did.

Click to expand...

The roll of Fortepan 400 that I developed previously does have 'Forte' and frame numbering. This roll there is nothing in the rebate area anywhere. Does that lead us back to severe under-development?

Oh, and before anyone asks, I don't have a lens cap for this camera.

Not necessarily.
You can't always compare different film types even if they are branded the same.
As I understand things, you got some faint images on this roll (the ISO100) but no edge markings, and that the leader has developed. My conclusion would be that therefore this film doesn't have edge markings ... but different Sherlocks might come to different conclusions!

Some Fomapan has no rebate printing but you have some frames that are not that good- but the remainder should have been the same, rather than absent.

Id suspect the camera for the missing frames.

Are all the sprocket holes unmarred, please inspect carefully for a tear or kink.

I don't know if they have a full interlock ie your camera might fire with the lens out but not fully locked when it will click but the shutter won't open. The sender's for the shutter and aperture are visible and you can watch them at the B setting with the back off from the rear...

Down load the Fomapan 100 data sheet from the manufacturers site.

Ok, I'll check deeper into the camera, and finish off the roll of color. I'll get back with my findings when a I get the roll back from the developer.

Xmas said:

Down load the Fomapan 100 data sheet from the manufacturers site.

Click to expand...

but this isn't fomapan 100, it's expired fortepan 100

pdeeh said:

but this isn't fomapan 100, it's expired fortepan 100

Click to expand...

oops - but if there is no rebate next to the good frames it still rules out bad development.

Kirks518 said:

Ok, I'll check deeper into the camera, and finish off the roll of color. I'll get back with my findings when a I get the roll back from the developer.

Click to expand...

If the cassette was tight or jammed the sprocket witness mars might not be obvious. You need to check the shaft rewind keyway turns every time you wind on,
turn the camera upside down...

Please don't say that is silly or ask how I know.

The exposed leader looks suspiciously "thin", suggesting under development (at least). Several confidence building checks can be made for this part of the process....

Double-check your arithmetic, measurements and temperature for the developer mixing.

Before developing the roll, drop the trimmed off leader (the tail which you cut off the film to make a straight edge for loading the spiral) into the measuring beaker/jug of diluted developer - it should go completely black (not see-thru at all) during the chosen development time. Note that this only checks that the developer is active and it doesn't help with deciding a dev time.

If the tested leader does not go black, then check (again) that the developer is correctly mixed and the time is 'right'. It could be that your water has a problem (unlikely, but possible) or that the film is damaged by being far out of date (Fortepan stopped distribution many years ago) and badly stored.

If the film is bad then replace it with another brand which you know to be good ie. buy fresh film from an online stockist with a high turnover. Later on it might be possible to use your out-of-date film by shooting it as ISO25 (for example), but at this stage you just want to get reliable and consistent results.

Your fixing time is fine at 3 1/2 minutes. You are not washing the film enough - as an absolute minimum, follow the Ilford directions. Don't use dish-washing soap as a wetting agent, use photographic wetting-agent or nothing. Give a final rinse in distilled water (with a tiny amount of wetting-agent if you have it) to reduce the possibility of water marks.

Smile !!! You will be very happy when you work out what is going wrong.

As soon as i read it, "im doing something wrong! , But what am to do? " post. I laughed! I say that every day, every minute, every second. I can not escape that thought.

Underdeveloped, use more developer and report back.

You need to get the camera out of the variables, as it's a new one to you. Start there. Shoot a roll of color film using a meter you KNOW is accurate (even if it means taking another camera that you know is working correctly with you to compare readings), or use sunny 16. Don't do any slow speed interior stuff, shoot the roll outside in good light. OK, you could shoot a few frames in low light, but remember to jot down on something what frames those were shot on. Then take the film to a lab and have them develop it and see what you have.

If only two frames have images, I just don't see how it can have anything to do with the developing process. If the times, temp, freshness of dev etc are correct for Dil H then it must have developed what was on the neg to the maximum.

Everything points to a camera fault around the exposure. Poor exposure on two frames and no exposure on the rest.

pentaxuser

momus said:

You need to get the camera out of the variables, as it's a new one to you. Start there. Shoot a roll of color film using a meter you KNOW is accurate (even if it means taking another camera that you know is working correctly with you to compare readings), or use sunny 16. Don't do any slow speed interior stuff, shoot the roll outside in good light. OK, you could shoot a few frames in low light, but remember to jot down on something what frames those were shot on. Then take the film to a lab and have them develop it and see what you have.

Click to expand...

And OP needs to check the rewind shaft is rotating...

If one is using a fresh alkaline battery the camera will underexpose a stop or so.

pentaxuser said:

If only two frames have images, I just don't see how it can have anything to do with the developing process. If the times, temp, freshness of dev etc are correct for Dil H then it must have developed what was on the neg to the maximum.

Everything points to a camera fault around the exposure. Poor exposure on two frames and no exposure on the rest.

pentaxuser

Click to expand...

Those 2 frames are shoot with 1/15s aperture unknown, and others with 1/500s f8, according to the OP.

For old film that is expired in 2002, and maybe stored in heat or who know where and how - I would say heavily underdeveloped and underexposed.

Are you using your developer one shot? There is a current thread where someone was saying that they were storing HC-110 Dil H between development sessions. HC-110 can be used replenished but not at this dilution. I think the lack of markings on the film rebate suggest no/under development.

Simonh82 said:

I think the lack of markings on the film rebate suggest no/under development.

Click to expand...

Only if we know for sure that the film is supposed to have edge markings.
As some films don't, that is not an infallible guide