Ilford Warntone + Fomatone... [booooom!]

marciofs · Oct 8, 2015

I got both and I expect a very warm tonality on my prints.

Buuuuuut... I am afraid to make it too warm for my taste.
I actually don't know what is my taste because I never printed really warm a part from Art 300 toned with selenium (Which look really nice by the way).

So I know it is possible to control the warmness according to the time the print spend in the developer. Is that right?

What I would like to know is if the longer in the developer the warmer it get. Because I read something related to it somewhere but I don't remember the procedure exactly.

nworth · Oct 8, 2015

My experience with warmtone papers and developers is that they vary a lot, and you can not predict the outcome from one combination from the outcome of any other combination, even with the same paper or developer. You just have to try it and see if it works for you.

Colin Corneau · Oct 8, 2015

I'd echo what nworth says - that's been my experience, too, for what it's worth.

I do know that I've used sepia toner to warm prints, and you really see a difference between papers with that process. Interestingly, (and I'm sure this is nothing new, so forgive me) I diluted the bleach to slow down that process, which really allowed me to only lightly warm a print. Worked well!

Mike Crawford · Oct 9, 2015

Why not try mixing it with a more normal working developer such as PQ. The more PQ, the
less warm the print should be and you can continue working at a normal contrast. Works for me with other WT devs such as Harman, so hopefully will with Foma too.

marciofs · Oct 9, 2015

Mike Crawford said:
Why not try mixing it with a more normal working developer such as PQ. The more PQ, the
less warm the print should be and you can continue working at a normal contrast. Works for me with other WT devs such as Harman, so hopefully will with Foma too.

Thanks.
I will keep that in mind.

Alex Muir · Oct 9, 2015

I think that shorter developing times, lower temperature and more dilute developer give warmer tones. Some advice I've seen is to overexpose the print and develop for a shorter time. I've tried that, and it seems to work. I would suggest starting with the standard developing time to see if the effect suits your images, before altering the time,etc.
Alex

marciofs · Oct 9, 2015

Thanks Alex. Exactly what I need to know.

Roger Cole · Oct 9, 2015

Colin Corneau said:
I'd echo what nworth says - that's been my experience, too, for what it's worth.

I do know that I've used sepia toner to warm prints, and you really see a difference between papers with that process. Interestingly, (and I'm sure this is nothing new, so forgive me) I diluted the bleach to slow down that process, which really allowed me to only lightly warm a print. Worked well!

I do something similar with very dilute (1/8th strength or even less) single solution brown toner. I love the results with Ilford MGWT FB and Ilford WT developer.

marciofs · Oct 9, 2015

I didn't expect the more diluted the more warm.

Bob Carnie · Oct 9, 2015

If you like Art 300 you will like Ilford Warmtone, I think they are both the same emulsion.

marciofs said:
I got both and I expect a very warm tonality on my prints.

Buuuuuut... I am afraid to make it too warm for my taste.
I actually don't know what is my taste because I never printed really warm a part from Art 300 toned with selenium (Which look really nice by the way).

So I know it is possible to control the warmness according to the time the print spend in the developer. Is that right?

What I would like to know is if the longer in the developer the warmer it get. Because I read something related to it somewhere but I don't remember the procedure exactly.

Ian Grant · Oct 9, 2015

My experience is warmth is very predictable, but you need to do some test strips first, too .cold increase the exposure & cut the development time, or dilute the developer slightly, too warm, cut the exposure 10-15% and increase development.

l only use warm tone papers because I can vary the warmth enormously to suit the mood I want in the final print.

Ian

Michael Wesik · Oct 9, 2015

Alex Muir said:
I think that shorter developing times, lower temperature and more dilute developer give warmer tones. Some advice I've seen is to overexpose the print and develop for a shorter time. I've tried that, and it seems to work. I would suggest starting with the standard developing time to see if the effect suits your images, before altering the time,etc.
Alex

I manipulate my developing times with Ilford's warmtone paper regularly. I typically stay in the range between 1 and 7 minutes, though I have managed a 27 minute developing time without getting any sort of fogging. The longer the developing time the cooler, more steely the print. Best of luck!

marciofs · Oct 9, 2015

Bob Carnie said:
If you like Art 300 you will like Ilford Warmtone, I think they are both the same emulsion.

The warmtone I got from Ilford is the developer.

Sorry for have not made it clear. What I got is warmtone developer and Fomatone to use together.

Ian Grant · Oct 9, 2015

It dud read as if you'd bought Ilford and Foma Warmtone papers, comments remain the same though.

Don't be afraid of warmth it can add a lot.

Ian

LarsAC · Oct 9, 2015

Michael Wesik said:
I manipulate my developing times with Ilford's warmtone paper regularly. I typically stay in the range between 1 and 7 minutes, though I have managed a 27 minute developing time without getting any sort of fogging. The longer the developing time the cooler, more steely the print. Best of luck!

Do you mean you actually overexpose or do you stop down the aperture on the enlarger lens to increase exposure time ? When do you pull the print out of the developer if you overexpose ?

Lars

marciofs · Oct 9, 2015

Ian Grant said:
It dud read as if you'd bought Ilford and Foma Warmtone papers, comments remain the same though.

Don't be afraid of warmth it can add a lot.

Ian

Thanks... I was thinking that combining both could maybe be too much... (for my taste which I still will find).

LarsAC said:
Do you mean you actually overexpose or do you stop down the aperture on the enlarger lens to increase exposure time ? When do you pull the print out of the developer if you overexpose ?

Lars

Excellent question!

Michael Wesik · Oct 10, 2015

LarsAC said:
Do you mean you actually overexpose or do you stop down the aperture on the enlarger lens to increase exposure time ? When do you pull the print out of the developer if you overexpose ?

Lars

I use a Heiland LED enlarger head that gives me the ability to manipulate my power settings by two stops so I typically adjust my power, but it depends on how big of a jump in developing time I'm looking to make...and what my starting point is.

With short developing times I'll pull the print 30 seconds after being completely covered by the developer and then drain for 15 - 30 seconds depending on the size of the paper. I've found that with shorter developing times the result is much warmer and the contrast is higher relative to long developing times.

And I use Ilford warmtone developer 1+7 regularly. I find that using it stronger makes for more consistent printing without the need to adjust developing time or exposure to compensate for developer fatigue. Using the stronger developer also helps to mitigate the risk of mottling that comes with short developing times.

Hope that answers your questions!

Michael Wesik · Oct 10, 2015

I might also add that longer developing times will push the colour of selenium toning into the purples while shorter developing times keeps it in the browns, generally speaking.

marciofs · Oct 21, 2015

I just finish printing with Fomatone (paper) and Ilford Wormtone (developer).

I really like it.

But it has a tine green tonality on it. I dont' know yet if I like it. I don't rate it certanly but I am not 100% confortable. Maybe it is because I am not used to it yet. But I like the worm look.

Maybe I can use something to "stain", like tee or coffee, to make its colour more bown and less green?

PS: not selenium because I decide to stop use it.

Mark Fisher · Oct 21, 2015

Ilford Warmtone can be pretty cool if used with a cold toned developer (like LDP straight) or warm to green with a warmer tone/more dilute developer. I really don't like it straight out of dilute developer. Even a brief selenium tone helps....and I understand why you don't like selenium. The nice thing about selenium is that it tones the shadows first allowing you to sepia tone the highlights. If you just sepia tone, it gets really brown if you tone all the way down the shadows. I wish I had an answer for you that didn't include selenium. One other alternative to consider is to just use a neutral toned paper, bleach it a little, and sepia tone. That will give you black shadows and warm highlights.

Ian Grant · Oct 22, 2015

I've used Fomatone Classic MG 131 with Ilford ID-78 developer which is essentially the earlier version of Ilford Warmtone developer.

Here's an example, selenium toned, neutral grey scale as a comparison:

As with most warmtone papers there's initially a slight greenish look and the best way to neutralise this is by selenium toning. I know the OP wants to be Eco friendly and one advantage of Selenium toning is you keep re-using it and just top your working solution up with fresh toner every so often so there's little to no disposal issues.

Ian

Roger Cole · Oct 23, 2015

I love that result, Ian. How strong do you mix the selenium? How long at what temperature? Would a comparable treatment give similar results with Ilford WTFB you think?

I like the results I get with MGWT and Harman Warmtone developer + very dilute brown toner, but the toning can be difficult to control. It also yellows the borders (and highlights, of course.) That can look fine in the highlights as long as your overmat covers the borders.

Ian Grant · Oct 23, 2015

Yes the results with MGWT are fairly similar except the paper base is whiter than the Foma. The Foma gives a slightly more olive brown but the difference is slight.

My Selenium toner must be 20 years old and I just top it up every so often with fresh toner, occasionally I filter or decant it. You shouldn't get any yellowing of the paper, that's usually an indication of residual silver left in the paper after fixing. Two bath fixing should prevent this. It may also be you're over-washing and removing the optical brighteners, as well as that some mat board is too white and doesn't work as well with warm tone prints.

I use KRST at approx 1 to 20, I top it up with stronger probably about 1 to 5 as it gets exhausted. I've found it's better to do the toning in daylight as it's harder to see the colour shift in artificial light, at the beginning of a toning session I'm careful particularly with the first prints to watch the colour change and the time it's taking as that gives me a basic indication for later prints.

As you noted you either need to use the developer more dilute or shorten the dev time, the toner increases the Dmax, over development kills the warmth.

Ian

marciofs · Oct 23, 2015

Ian Grant said:
Yes the results with MGWT are fairly similar except the paper base is whiter than the Foma. The Foma gives a slightly more olive brown but the difference is slight.

My Selenium toner must be 20 years old and I just top it up every so often with fresh toner, occasionally I filter or decant it. You shouldn't get any yellowing of the paper, that's usually an indication of residual silver left in the paper after fixing. Two bath fixing should prevent this. It may also be you're over-washing and removing the optical brighteners, as well as that some mat board is too white and doesn't work as well with warm tone prints.

I use KRST at approx 1 to 20, I top it up with stronger probably about 1 to 5 as it gets exhausted. I've found it's better to do the toning in daylight as it's harder to see the colour shift in artificial light, at the beginning of a toning session I'm careful particularly with the first prints to watch the colour change and the time it's taking as that gives me a basic indication for later prints.

As you noted you either need to use the developer more dilute or shorten the dev time, the toner increases the Dmax, over development kills the warmth.

Ian

How often you top the selenium up?
How much selenium you dispose to top up with a fresh one?
I suppose you often have to filter the selenium too, Am I right?

I was using selenium diluted 1+4. Was it too strong?

Ian Grant · Oct 23, 2015

marciofs said:
How often you top the selenium up?
How much selenium you dispose to top up with a fresh one?
I suppose you often have to filter the selenium too, Am I right?

I was using selenium diluted 1+4. Was it too strong?

I don't dispose of any Selenium toner, the carry over into the rinse bath means the volume's decreasing. 1+4 is too strong with KRST. I like the time to be around the 3 minute mark, if the time is too short you run the risk of split toning where the shadows turn reddish brown while the rest of the prints looks fairly normal. Of course some have used this effect, Linda Connor, Thomas Joshua Cooper and Olivia Parker are 3 that come to mind.

It depends how many prints I've made and toned before I top it up again, I'd guess after every 20 or so 12"x16" prints. I probably filter it once a year, but I was living abroad for 7 years and only printing while back in the UK.

If I filter the toner I keep the residue along with those from filtered fixer and replenished developers because they all contain silver. I don't worry about the traces of selenium carried over into the wash water, the selenium in sewage from people taking selenium supplement tablets is far higher by a huge amount. In addition selenium is naturally occurring and found in many foods.

Ian

Ilford Warntone + Fomatone... [booooom!]

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