Ilford warmtone developer. Not any warmer than Dektol

lhalcong · Jan 31, 2016

This may be a dead horse since I found and read many threads about this. But allow me to bring that horse back up.

I printed the same negative identically and processed in Dektol 1:2 for 2min. And the next in Ilford warmtone 1+9 for 2 min as well. Both at 68F. The paper was Ilford RC pearl. The prints look identical. My eye cannot discern if in fact one is warmer than the other, consequently if There is a difference, it is meaningless.

So I went on to do the next test, printed on Ilford warmtone paper and processed in Dektol and then the same print on Ilford warmtone paper but processed in Ilford warmtone developer. Again the one processed in warmtone developer is not any warmer than the one in Dektol. In other words it did not get any warmer than the natural warm of the paper itself. This makes the Ilford warmtone developer meaningless at least for this purpose.

If you wonder why I did this test, it's because I'm on the quest for warmer portrait tones but the toners I tried so far go beyond the cream warm I'm looking for.

Photo Engineer · Jan 31, 2016

Did the Ilford warmtone paper look any warmer than the RC pearl?

Actually, it is difficult to get warm tones in the developer and rather a lot easier to get in the emulsion making process. That is why I comment.

PE

Xmas · Jan 31, 2016

As Ron inducates you used to get silver bromide and silver chloride paper.

With a silver chloride paper and specialist developers and addition of KBr you could get the image to change colour.

Today with only silver bromide papers you need to use a post toning bath.

Ron may explain I have simplified things a little.

gzinsel · Jan 31, 2016

but you see, the issue here is chloro -bromide papers that have built in developers in the paper. It does not matter anymore which developer you use, when you use papers that have built in "characteristics".

have you tried Foma tone?

MattKing · Jan 31, 2016

The Ilford RC papers don't have meaningful amounts of developer incorporated into them, but they are designed to give consistent tone when used with a wide variety of developers.

Was the warmtone paper the FB or the RC version?

In any event, as gzinsel posted, some papers are much more susceptible to changes in developer than others. Those papers will respond to warmtone developer.

Photo Engineer · Jan 31, 2016

Matt, if you think Ilford papers have no incorporated developer, well, last time I checked with a drop of 40% NaOH on a piece of fogged MGIV paper, it developed all by itself. Several other brands had mixed results.

PE

lhalcong · Jan 31, 2016

gzinsel said:
but you see, the issue here is chloro -bromide papers that have built in developers in the paper. It does not matter anymore which developer you use, when you use papers that have built in "characteristics".

have you tried Foma tone?

i have it in my wish list next.

lhalcong · Jan 31, 2016

Xmas said:
As Ron inducates you used to get silver bromide and silver chloride paper.

With a silver chloride paper and specialist developers and addition of KBr you could get the image to change colour.

Today with only silver bromide papers you need to use a post toning bath.

Ron may explain I have simplified things a little.

I should google it or look up in books, but I will ask anyway. Out of curiosity What's the difference between silver bromide and silver chloride paper ? What are or were silver chloride names from the past ? When did they disappear ? Sorry I only started my darkroom adventure in the digital age. A little late.

images39 · Feb 1, 2016

When I tried a warmtone developer (I think it was Neutol WA) with a neutral tone paper (Foma RC), the effect was very subtle. I could see a very slight warming effect, but I wouldn't call it creamy.

With Ilford Warmtone RC, I find the most effective way to increase warmth is to selenium tone the print. For me, selenium has a much more notable effect than alternating between Dektol and a warmer developer. You can control the effect by varying the dilution of the toner (1:9 gives a faster and stronger effect than say, 1:15 or 1:20), the duration of toning, and the temperature of the toning bath.

Dale

mnemosyne · Feb 1, 2016

Unfortunately I don't have any experience with the Ilford WT developer. The only warmtone developer I've been using so far is Fomatol PW. When used with a warmtone paper like Fomatone MG and MG classic, it does result in a different image tone compared to a neutral developer (that would be "Rollei Vintage" paper developer in my case). The latter produces kind of a greenish hue, while Fomatol PW gives more of brownish tone. The difference is not huge, but it is evident when viewing two prints next to each other.

Ian Grant · Feb 1, 2016

images39 said:
When I tried a warmtone developer (I think it was Neutol WA) with a neutral tone paper (Foma RC), the effect was very subtle. I could see a very slight warming effect, but I wouldn't call it creamy.

With Ilford Warmtone RC, I find the most effective way to increase warmth is to selenium tone the print. For me, selenium has a much more notable effect than alternating between Dektol and a warmer developer. You can control the effect by varying the dilution of the toner (1:9 gives a faster and stronger effect than say, 1:15 or 1:20), the duration of toning, and the temperature of the toning bath.

Dale

Dale has it right, you can get excellent warmtones with Ilford Wartone papers and Ilford warmtone developer. How might need to change the way you work ti increase the warmth, that's longer exposures and shorter development time or more dilute developer.

It's also harder to see the difference in warmth in some lighting conditions and when prinys are wet. I've switched to Multigrade Warmtone since Forte shut down and can get excellent warm tones from the paper,

Ian

Xmas · Feb 1, 2016

lhalcong said:
I should google it or look up in books, but I will ask anyway. Out of curiosity What's the difference between silver bromide and silver chloride paper ? What are or were silver chloride names from the past ? When did they disappear ? Sorry I only started my darkroom adventure in the digital age. A little late.

Silver chlorides were slower than silver bromides, used them a lot for contact printing, eg Velox.

Hybrids like Kodak Bromesco were fast enough for enlarging and with techniques that Ian mentions could approach eg serpia post processing colours.

If you want pronounced today you need to go to post baths.

Doremus Scudder · Feb 1, 2016

"Creamy" is usually an adjective applied to the paper base itself, not the image tone. Maybe you need to look for a paper without a bright white base tone. There are several on the market today.

Doremus

Ian Grant · Feb 1, 2016

Doremus Scudder said:
"Creamy" is usually an adjective applied to the paper base itself, not the image tone. Maybe you need to look for a paper without a bright white base tone. There are several on the market today.

Doremus

The reason I didn't switch to Ilford Warmtone when AGFA stopped making papers was the off white creamy base, so I switched to Forte Polywarmtone, Since then that Ilford paper base was discontinued and Ilford WT FB is on a white base which suits me better.

However Simon Galley post here that extended washing would remove the optical brightener and give that off white base the described earlier. It doesn't work with RC papers.

Ian

Wayne · Feb 1, 2016

lhalcong said:
I should google it or look up in books, but I will ask anyway. Out of curiosity What's the difference between silver bromide and silver chloride paper ? What are or were silver chloride names from the past ? When did they disappear ? Sorry I only started my darkroom adventure in the digital age. A little late.

Kodak Azo is/was perhaps the best known silver chloride paper and there are reams of threads all over the net on it. It is extinct but Michael Smith had a clone created called Lodima, which is still available. It is said by its proponents to be the best thing since sliced bread, except you can't eat it.

Roger Cole · Feb 1, 2016

Wayne said:
Kodak Azo is/was perhaps the best known silver chloride paper and there are reams of threads all over the net on it. It is extinct but Michael Smith had a clone created called Lodima, which is still available. It is said by its proponents to be the best thing since sliced bread, except you can't eat it.

It is also intended for contact printing with a much brighter source than an enlarger (bulb over a frame or contact printer) and is very, very slow compared to enlarging papers (which is every other paper on the market now, as far as I'm aware.)

Photo Engineer · Feb 1, 2016

As a simple outline:

Contact papers: Velox, Azo, Velite. AgCl or AgCl/Br. Greenish to black tones

Enlarging papers: Kodabromide, Opal, Mealist. AgBr or AgCl/Br. Black to warm tones controlled by the emulsion making process.

These were difficult to control wrt tone by using developer.

Modern enlarging papers fit into those listed above, but use different chemicals due to environmental laws.

They too are difficult to alter using developer. It is often easier to tone or use a pigment.

PE

Wayne · Feb 1, 2016

Polywarmtone had wonderfully manipulable tone with regards to different developers. I've not tried anywhere near all other papers but I found few that I did try that came anywhere close, and most really didn't change much at all.

Ian Grant · Feb 1, 2016

Wayne said:
Polywarmtone had wonderfully manipulable tone with regards to different developers. I've not tried anywhere near all other papers but I found few that I did try that came anywhere close, and most really didn't change much at all.

My experience is that while Ilford Warmtone paper isn't as quite as responsive to small changes in time or dilution it is very flexible and I have closely matched the two papers when seeking to maximise warmth.. It's worth adding though that with modern zero Cadmium warmtone papers they tend to cool with age.

Ian

winger · Feb 1, 2016

I'm in a few print portfolio round robin groups and someone recently put in a print on Ilford warmtone FB that was developed in Dektol and it was definitely creamier than ones I had done using warmtone FB in Ilford multigrade developer. I don't have their print here to show a comparison, but maybe a better chemist than I can explain why this might be true.
And I know you're using RC, so this might not help at all.

Ian Grant · Feb 1, 2016

winger said:
I'm in a few print portfolio round robin groups and someone recently put in a print on Ilford warmtone FB that was developed in Dektol and it was definitely creamier than ones I had done using warmtone FB in Ilford multigrade developer. I don't have their print here to show a comparison, but maybe a better chemist than I can explain why this might be true.
And I know you're using RC, so this might not help at all.

That's as it should be, Iford Multigrade developer was formulated to stop colour shifts at different contrast grades with the Multigrade papers released in the late 1970's. It's colder working than the Ilfospeed developer or PQ Universal then available, Dektol is slightly warm working in comparison.

Ian

Wayne · Feb 1, 2016

Ian Grant said:
My experience is that while Ilford Warmtone paper isn't as quite as responsive to small changes in time or dilution it is very flexible and I have closely matched the two papers when seeking to maximise warmth.. It's worth adding though that with modern zero Cadmium warmtone papers they tend to cool with age.

Ian

I guess it depends on what tone you are looking for too. I was looking for a warm brown but not green tone that I only found by using a PQ version of Ansco 130 with polywarmtone. I couldn't come even close to that with Ilford Warmtone no matter what developer I tried. But its possible one could match them to other tones, like you apparently have. I did not experiment much with toners as I'd rather avoid using them but that would be another way of possibly making them match up closer.

Roger Cole · Feb 1, 2016

Try very light toning of MGWT (FB, I have not tried the RC) with brown toner. It's a bit touchy to control, and if you let it go until it looks right it will look far warmer after it dries, but it can be quite rewarding and give some really beautiful tones from just slightly warm to rich warm reddish-brown.

Wayne · Feb 1, 2016

Hopefully polywarmtone will be back within the year and then I won't need to tone anything.

amellice · Feb 1, 2016

+1 for selenium toning, it certainly change the tone

Ilford warmtone developer. Not any warmer than Dektol

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