Ilford Tour Report Link

I haven't noticed a link to this, (If I've missed it, apologies for duplication) but I was there, and this sums up the tour perfectly. Many thanks to Dave Parry for taking the time to report, and repeated thanks to Ilford for organising.

Dead Link Removed

Dear All,

I just wanted to say a thank you to Mr.Rusty for posting this and a special thank you to everyone who came and visited with us, especially those who travelled from the USA and Europe.

It really was great to have such positive and engaging groups, I know our staff enjoyed your visit as well.

One more tour this coming week and then we are finished for 2013, who knows we may arrange again for 2014 ( perhaps when it is a bit warmer ! ) to get the positive feedback on the tour is great and we are pleased you felt 'part of the family' if only for a day.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Simon, I think we will feel part of the family for a long time to come.

I wish I could have made one of these. Perhaps the year after next?

Great write-up, thank you.

I didn't realise there was another tour this week. Anyone knows when is that?

This coming thursday

But not for APUGGERS I'm afraid

Simon ILFORD photo / HARMAN technology limited :

A long and expensive drive put me off going, but I would love to have gone. Dave Parry's report is excellent.

Simon, can you confirm or clarify the following comment made in his blog post:

Dave Parry said:

an ingredient of one of their current films being subject to new legislation which will make it illegal to produce as of 2015.

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I don't expect you to reveal trade secrets of course, but is this an accurate representation of something Harman are having to manage?

(wondering if it's related to sensitising dyes for SFX)

I think it was XP2...? They said they'd made a bit already to last a while, but were working on a way around the latest EU restrictions to keep the product going i.e an alternative 'ingredient'.

Xpres said:

I think it was XP2...? They said they'd made a bit already to last a while, but were working on a way around the latest EU restrictions to keep the product going i.e an alternative 'ingredient'.

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I wonder what is peculiar to XP2+ or Fuji 400 B&W chromogenic which Harman make that isn't in other C41 colour films or might it be that the ingredient applies to colour film as well although this isn't Harman's worry.

How optimistic was Harman about solving the issue? Take away XP2+ and by that token Fuji as well I'd have thought and that leaves Kodak's chromogenic of which I am not a fan at all and wouldn't use.

A bit worrying

pentaxuser

Mike, it's all on Ilfordphoto.com under Health & Safety.

miha said:

Mike, it's all on Ilfordphoto.com under Health & Safety.

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Yes if you dig
For the more challenged I quote

"The exception is XP2 Super film, which contains some dibutyl phthalate. This is now designated a Substance of Very High Concern in the EU, it is classified as Toxic for Reproduction, and its use is being phased out across the EU. XP2 Super film (processed or unprocessed) should be kept out of the reach of children. It should not be placed in the mouth, and if handled for extended periods of time, gloves should be worn. In this one case, processing laboratories should treat scrap film as hazardous waste.
(To put this into context, dibutyl phthalate was used very extensively in the past as a plasticiser in flexible plastics such as PVC, and in inks and sealants. It is present in many everyday items, including (eg) vinyl flooring, injection-moulded shoe soles, shower curtains, and electrical cables.)"

well dug!

pdeeh said:

well dug!

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And just to put the 'EU' regulations in the real world the amount of 'hazardous' material in a roll is so small as to be almost unmeasurable. So they said... I think.

Interesting speculation in the original link regarding possible worst-case scenarios for color film, a topic touched upon in a few earlier APUG threads...



Ken

Thanks for the Harman quote. It still leaves the 2 questions that I asked:

1. How optimistic is Harman about overcoming the EU problem?

2. Does the quoted chemical affect the future of all colour film?

Thanks

pentaxuser

This is a problem all photochemical industry has to face.

Xpres said:

And just to put the 'EU' regulations in the real world the amount of 'hazardous' material in a roll is so small as to be almost unmeasurable. So they said... I think.

Click to expand...

Perhaps the issue that the regulations wish to address is from the perspective of the manufacturing process as a whole, rather than the individual roll

AgX said:

This is a problem all photochemical industry has to face.

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I'll take the above reply as a Yes to my second question. So worst case scenario: Harman and the other colour film makers have a limited, if unspecified time, to find a substitute for this toxic chemical and if unsuccessful it spells the end of chromogenic and colour film

Best case scenario: A substitute is found or Harman and the other film makers persuade the EU that the quantities involved are so low as not to constitute a real health hazard

Is that an accurate conclusion?

A Simon Galley response would be very helpful here I think

pentaxuser

The dibutyl phthalate is widely cited in patent applications for colour/dye type emulsions. The high boiling solvents of phthalic ester compounds, e.g. dibutyl phthalate, and phosphoric ester compounds, e.g., tricresyl phosphate, have often been used as coupler solvents because of their coupler-dispersing ability, inexpensiveness and availability.

My reading would indicate it is used to dissolve a dye coupler, not present or necessary in conventional black and white negative film but intrinsic in the C-41 dye process hence the limited effect at Ilford to this film.
It is permanently retained in the emulsion as dispersed droplets within the coating. This would equate to the Ilford H&S warnings although we are talking literally microscopic amounts.

Obviously the exact formulae and uses are "trade secrets" but I would suggest from the literature that this is not the only such suitable solvent available. It may be the best choice for the particular coupler used in this case so the issue may not be replacing the implicated solvent but also replacing the coupler with which it is used which is going to affect the emulsion performance far more. Again there is a wide choice of couplers but all these variables will need testing.

I would further speculate that not all colour negative formulations will be affected as there are a wide range of couplers and again speculate that the particular black and white end point in this film, which requires a sensitisation to mimic conventional black and white film spectral sensitivity perhaps, requires different couplers than colour negative film.

This may all be wide of the mark and no doubt Photo Engineer could add comment as many of the patents were filed by Kodak.

I think the specific issue is with the market share of one film type the R&D required is out of proportion to the end result. Certainly investigation into new emulsions and crystal growth is a luxury the few left standing cannot afford and re-formulation alone is a major undertaking. I suspect most of the colour C-41 emulsions are safe and if not can be re-formulated the specific black and white C-41 may be at risk long term, short term there are master rolls representing years of supply.

AgX said:

This is a problem all photochemical industry has to face.

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-) this is not confined to colour film

-) this is not even confined to availability of ingredients necessary for manufacture, but even applies to the communication about those substances

-) the industry did lay out their view on this matter on the political level

Ilford Factory Tour - an outstanding Event!

Hello,

back to topic, the ‘Ilford Factory Tour’:
Last week I had the pleasure to join one of the factory tours. It was absolutely fantastic!
Dear Michelle, Helen, Simon and Howard, a big “thank you” to you and all your colleagues at Ilford for the outstanding factory tour! It has been so interesting and fascinating.
And so perfectly organized!
I've joined quite a lot of factory tours in my career, not only in the photo industry, but also in several industrial sectors, but the Ilford factory tour has been a real highlight.

I have so much respect for the outstanding job you and your colleagues at Ilford have done in the last years.
Despite the paradigma change in the photo industry, despite the "digital tsnumai", despite all these very big difficulties, you have been successful in keeping this huge factory running.
With a clear vision, keeping the whole product portfolio alive. No other manufacturer has done that.
Really an outstanding job! It is like a little miracle.
Thank you very much for that!
Because as an enthusiast photographer I am benefitting from that: I can continue using the products I like and need for my photography.
You have supported me as a photographer, so I will continue to support you as a manufacturer.
We’ve clearly seen the passion the Ilford team has for their products. They are really committed to film. That’s exactly what the market needs.

Best regards,
Henning

P.S.: The tour was not only so much informative, but also very entertaining:
Simon, if you and Howard would make a little “Ilford stand-up comedy show”, it will be a great success, and you could probably double the Ilford profits .
Wonderful British humor at its best.

Dear Henning,

So pleased you enjoyed it, it was good to meet you as well...

Regarding XP2 Super and the notes about the chemical that we must replace ( DBT ). This is currently being worked on by our R&D and Product Technology Group. In common with many chemicals and components used in the assembling and coating of film and paper products DBT is used in tiny, tiny concentrations but is an important additive. We face these type of issues on a regular basis and we have the technology and the skills required to reformulate, and the facilities to manufacture our own chemical solutions for whatever product so as we can continue to manufacture the whole ILFORD range, that as I have already explained is our intention to continue so to do, all product families will continue to be manufactured and that most certainly includes XP2 Super.

The skill is to ensure that after this, and any other change forced upon us for whatever reason, is to ensure whichever product or products that are affected continue to perform and behave in exactly the same way and produce exactly the same result, I have not one iota of doubt that we will achieve this is the case of XP2 Super and any other product similarly affected in future.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Happy to read good news.

Thanks Simon. That settles it for me. Still leaves the question about colour film but the makers of those will either solve the issue or not but as we never hear from them then we'll only know they haven't managed to solve it when they announce the end of colour film production.

Here's hoping that in this case we never hear any announcement

pentaxuser