Ilford Silk Sufrace VS Rayon Surface B&W Paper

Stephen Frizza · Jun 3, 2010

Im curious I have spent the past few days printing on silk surface and rayon surface paper and shame on me Im not sure what the difference in these two surfaces are. Under a magnifying glass the rayon seems to have a slightly courser stipple but its so small a difference its negligible... im sure my face is going to be red but someone please let me know rayon and silk surfaces what are the key differences? (P.S they are both AWESOME Printing surfaces im in love)

Simon R Galley · Jun 3, 2010

Dear Stephen,

I am very confused......

We do not make an ILFORD 'Silk' or an ILFORD 'Rayon' surface

Simon. ILFORD Photo / HARMAN tcehnology Limited

Stephen Frizza · Jun 3, 2010

Ilford used to 30 years ago. I have been printing on out of production stock.

Simon R Galley · Jun 3, 2010

Dear Stephen.....

I remember silk but not 'Rayon'... perhaps ILFORD were allowed to use it as we were part of ICI ( I am pretty sure it was an ICI brand name ) before we were taken over by Ciba in the 1960s.

I am just amazed that paper in Australia after 30+ years is still usable in any way...

Well, well...

Thanks for putting me right !

Simon. ILFORD photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Stephen Frizza · Jun 3, 2010

Its perfect the base isn't even slightly fogged. The packets were never opened and it looks like its just come off the production line. Bravo Ilford for selling suck top notch stuff...Ide just like someone to be able to tell me what the difference between silk and rayon is. next im going to print some Velvet Stipple. I look forward to seeing that surface.!

Simon R Galley · Jun 3, 2010

I most certainly do remember velvet stipple...and I hated it

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology limited :

Chazzy · Jun 3, 2010

Ilford apparently still makes satin paper (although I haven't had the chance to see any). Does that have the appearance of woven fabric? Such papers used to be common.

Simon R Galley · Jun 3, 2010

Dear Steven / Chazzy,

Back in the old days the actual photo bases ( to coat on ) that were available, were very diverse, several manufacturers with 'specialist' type embossed or patterned surfaces, the accepted 'ILFORD' nomenclature of a silk product would be non-smooth or 'interupted' surface with a satin type or light sheen surface..

Rayon....not a clue, thinking to the artificial fabric I would best guess a smoother product than the silk but again with a satin type surface.

Velvet stipple...like the bottom of a tiny training shoe for GI Joe ( or Action Man in the UK ! ) tiny little raised bobbles....hideous...you'll see..or you may love it ? who knows...

Simon. ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

kraker · Jun 3, 2010

Velvet Stipple

I've read about this Velvet Stipple surface a few times now (most if not all of it here on APUG), but haven't had the (bad?) luck to see it yet.

Stephen, if it's not too much trouble, would you mind posting a scan of a velvet stipple print once you've processed some of it?

David A. Goldfarb · Jun 3, 2010

I liked velvet stipple. Not sure if I have any prints around that were printed on it. That was a long time ago.

srs5694 · Jun 3, 2010

FWIW, Slavich still makes a "silk" surface paper, called Bromoportrait 80. It's a fiber-based graded paper. In the US, it's available from Freestyle. I'm not sure about a European (much less an Australian) supplier. I have no idea how similar it is to the Ilford silk-surface paper, but I thought I'd mention it in case anybody else likes this surface and would like to try some.

smithy17 · Jun 3, 2010

Simon R Galley said:
I most certainly do remember velvet stipple...and I hated it

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology limited :

Out of curiosity Simon, which of the current Ilford papers and surfaces are your own favourites?

I am using MG4 RC in gloss and pearl for learning to print with and I have recently bought some MG4 FB.
Would Ilfospeed and Galerie be worth while trying as well?

Stephen Frizza · Jun 3, 2010

Simon R Galley said:
I most certainly do remember velvet stipple...and I hated it

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology limited :

Ouch wheres the love hehehe! why did u hate velvet stipple? or is it something i just have to discover tomorrow?

Simon R Galley · Jun 3, 2010

Dear Stephen,

Velvet stipple ...I just hated it....perhaps you will find out tomorrow.

Dear Smithy,

My favourite paper surface in RC is Pearl and my absolute favourite of all our paper products is GALERIE Fibre Base Gloss ( 5K )

The papers you are using now are absolutely fine, in FB its very subjective but I prefer the Gloss surface to the Matt, always have, always will...

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Anon Ymous · Jun 3, 2010

Simon R Galley said:
...My favourite paper surface in RC is Pearl...

Hello Simon, is it just my impression, or is Pearl the best selling RC paper surface?

Ian Grant · Jun 3, 2010

Simon R Galley said:
Dear Stephen,

Velvet stipple ...I just hated it....perhaps you will find out tomorrow.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

I trhink most people agrr=eed with you. There was a Kodak colour paper with a similar finish that was equally as bad.

Ian

smithy17 · Jun 3, 2010

Simon R Galley said:
Dear Stephen,

Velvet stipple ...I just hated it....perhaps you will find out tomorrow.

Dear Smithy,

My favourite paper surface in RC is Pearl and my absolute favourite of all our paper products is GALERIE Fibre Base Gloss ( 5K )

The papers you are using now are absolutely fine, in FB its very subjective but I prefer the Gloss surface to the Matt, always have, always will...

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Thanks Simon. The print developer I am using is Ilford Multigrade diluted 1+9. Is that a good choice, or would Bromophen or PQ Universal work better?
I think I am going to order some GALERIE (5K). Not sure whether to choose grade 2 or 3 though.

Simon R Galley · Jun 4, 2010

Dear Smithy et al,

PEARL is the biggest seller worldwide, then GLOSSY and finally SATIN, but in various markets GLOSSY is more popular... as a print developer MULTIGRADE Dev is still the biggest seller and easy to use, its what I use. I think one of the great pleasures of printing is that you can experiment with different papers and chemistries yourself and find what suits your printing and subject style. Its also good to hear what other people do, thats education, but no substitute for a day in the darkroom and lots of different things to try, but get the 'basics' correct first. As to GALERIE grade 2 or grade 3 it depends entirely on the neg you produce....interestingly, it always 'seems' to me that this side of the pond we seem to print about half to a full grade more contrasty than the other side of the pond....not a true scientific statement just my impression...

Simon. ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology limited :

steven_e007 · Jun 4, 2010

*Gulp*
Ok... I'll confess. I loved velvet stipple. Still do. Mind you, my favourite paper was the original (Cadmium rich ;-) Kentmere Kentona in 'stipple' that I used to use - I think I may still have some, somewhere. Not sure if it was quite the same sort of surface? Another similar textured surface I remember was Barnet's 'Tiger Tooth'. Still have a few sheets of that, too, although fogged to oblivion, now.

Hmmm. I wonder, didn't Ilford take over Barnet? Does Harman still hold any of these old Brand names?
Mind you, with Simon's feelings for textured surfaces, I can't see a re-release of Barnet's Tiger Tooth any time soon!

clayne · Jun 4, 2010

Simon R Galley said:
As to GALERIE grade 2 or grade 3 it depends entirely on the neg you produce....interestingly, it always 'seems' to me that this side of the pond we seem to print about half to a full grade more contrasty than the other side of the pond....not a true scientific statement just my impression...

Simon. ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology limited :

This is actually a valid and interesting observation Simon. It's been well known over the years that within the realm of music, UK mastering and mixing engineers always approached a mix differently than their American counterparts. In general, UK recording engineers are perceived as spending more time on the "production" side of things.

Now in regards to paper surfaces, I'd kill for the days where such variety was available. For RC, I like Satin and Pearl, but abhor Glossy. In FB everything has it's own feel and I generally don't dislike any of them. However, glossy is typically the used surface (as we all know it's a subdued gloss).

steven_e007 · Jun 4, 2010

Originally Posted by Simon R Galley View Post
As to GALERIE grade 2 or grade 3 it depends entirely on the neg you produce....interestingly, it always 'seems' to me that this side of the pond we seem to print about half to a full grade more contrasty than the other side of the pond...

When I took a photography trip to the Yosemite one summer I found a lot of my negatives were over exposed and over developed. I just wasn't used to such bright light and (I suspect) such a high UV content at such a southern(ish) latitude at 10 000ft or whatever it is! I wonder if the extra contrast used by those of us on this side of the pond is more functional than aesthetic? At least for those of us who live in the UK, where it is cold and dark and miserable... ;-)

Steve Smith · Jun 4, 2010

steven_e007 said:
At least for those of us who live in the UK, where it is cold and dark and miserable... ;-)

That only applies to anywhere north of Portsmouth!

Steve.

clayne · Jun 4, 2010

steven_e007 said:
When I took a photography trip to the Yosemite one summer I found a lot of my negatives were over exposed and over developed. I just wasn't used to such bright light and (I suspect) such a high UV content at such a southern(ish) latitude at 10 000ft or whatever it is! I wonder if the extra contrast used by those of us on this side of the pond is more functional than aesthetic? At least for those of us who live in the UK, where it is cold and dark and miserable... ;-)

On the flip-side I can tell you that I don't generally print any different for photographs originating from the equator. It's an interesting observation though.

Stephen Frizza · Jun 4, 2010

Ok I printed on velvet stipple today, its loosely similar to Agfa Fiber based Semi matte in terms of surface. I guess it is horses for courses in regards to what is and isn't a nice paper surface. but I didn't think it was anything to get excited over when saw it ( unlike Silk & Rayon Surface where I vocally called out WOW by myself in the darkroom when I first laid eyes and fingers upon their surface. I almost wet myself with glee) but velvet stipple isn't the ugly duckling of paper surfaces.... I am thinking the surface of velvet stipple might be great for retouching with oils? can anyone confirm this?

steven_e007 · Jun 4, 2010

clayne said:
On the flip-side I can tell you that I don't generally print any different for photographs originating from the equator. It's an interesting observation though.

Yep... but you probably know what you're doing

Ilford Silk Sufrace VS Rayon Surface B&W Paper

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