Ilford says ''Color file is unsatisfactory for panchro bw paper''

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Jan 5, 2014

I downloaded ilford ilfospeed and gallerie digital bw panchro paper fact sheets and it says :

Black and White prints can be made directly from colour
digital files although the results are often unsatisfactory
unless the file is first converted to greyscale. We would
therefore recommend colour files be converted to
Greyscale, prior to printing. The smaller files made by
discarding the colour information are also much quicker to
RIP and write. There is another advantage to doing this,
as some colour originals printed straight to Black & White
do not make suitable or interesting images without some
adjustment to their contrast or density.

If we can not print color image on panchro bw paper , what is the point of making panchro paper ?

Umut

Hexavalent · Jan 5, 2014

The first few paragraphs of the datasheet give a hint to its purpose:

GALERIE RC DIGITAL SILVER has been designed using the very latest black and white silver halide emulsion technology. It has spectral sensitivity and exposure characteristics specially suited to optical digital exposure systems with tricolour laser enlargers or LED systems produced by Durst, Océ, Pollielettronica, Fuji and others.

GALERIE RC DIGITAL SILVER has excellent contrast, sharpness and surface finish that will give superb continuous tone black and white images or text from digital files prepared from either black and white or colour film negatives or positives, prints and digital originals. The results are equal to those seen when using conventional black and white printing materials and exposing equipment.

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Jan 5, 2014

Thank you Hexavalent , my mother is making cake and I am running between computer and kitchen.

Now the big question , how we can improve our bw prints via colored digital inkjet or analog negatives ? May be printing some areas different color shades , effecting some tones with different colors could improve our control on that panchro papers via these negatives.

And what about ortho papers , stained negatives improves and our multicolor stained where these stains optimized to spectrum of papers , could open a new possibility ?

I dont think amateurs could buy these digital printers but some film staining inks or printer .

AgX · Jan 5, 2014

Hexavalent said:
The first few paragraphs of the datasheet give a hint to its purpose:

GALERIE RC DIGITAL SILVER has been designed using the very latest black and white silver halide emulsion technology. It has spectral sensitivity and exposure characteristics specially suited to optical digital exposure systems with tricolour laser enlargers or LED systems produced by Durst, Océ, Pollielettronica, Fuji and others.

GALERIE RC DIGITAL SILVER has excellent contrast, sharpness and surface finish that will give superb continuous tone black and white images or text from digital files prepared from either black and white or colour film negatives or positives, prints and digital originals. The results are equal to those seen when using conventional black and white printing materials and exposing equipment.

The first statement in the quotation given by Umut contradicts these other statements above. In this Umut is right.

Concerning colour contrast filters:
They are not used in laser etc. line-exposure. And when one modifies the colours in the data files then of course one could make a greyscale file from the beginning. But then again the question arises, why make panchro material for laser exposure?

In classical optical printing though one can use colour contrast filters and here panchro paper makes sense.

Bob Carnie · Jan 5, 2014

I have been using this process for years.
Our Lab was the first lab worldwide to offer Digital fibre Murals on Silver Gelatin Paper, we started with Agfa Classic which is not panchromatic.
The Paper Harman introduced latter has an extended red sensitivity.

I am not sure why, other than the red sensitivity may have been needed for the laser exposure to work. I think here lies your answer.

I work exclusively with the Harmon Paper for laser and exposure, I do not make RC prints though and that is consistent with my enlarger work.

Prof_Pixel · Jan 5, 2014

It's 'panchromatic' because it is designed to work with exposure systems using Red, Green and Blue lasers; not because it's designed for color film exposure with white light.

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Jan 5, 2014

Another good point , I think it does make useless to try to invent on that paper. Thank you Prof.Pixel.

AgX · Jan 5, 2014

Prof_Pixel said:
It's 'panchromatic' because it is designed to work with exposure systems using Red, Green and Blue lasers; not because it's designed for color film exposure with white light.

But still it is advised by Ilford to make geyscale files. To me then that special paper makes no sense aside of gaining speed.

And such an approach is also employed with classical photographic paper and no-one speaks of ortho-paper or such...

snapguy · Jan 5, 2014

obvious

It seems pretty obvious this product was manufactured for digital files, not film negatives. It is very okay if Ilford makes this product although I will not be using it myself.

hoffy · Jan 5, 2014

We get panned for taking about scanning, so why has this any thing to do with APUG?

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Jan 5, 2014

We get panned for taking about scanning, so why has this any thing to do with APUG?

Because I thought painted negatives or color digital negatives would have more control on the processes. Now I am continueing on Ortho Paper and colored negative.

AgX · Jan 5, 2014

hoffy said:
We get panned for taking about scanning, so why has this any thing to do with APUG?

Because this paper though intended for digital exposure is nevertheless the only panchromatic paper left. (I don't know about the Minutka paper.)

And as such it belongs to our portfolio.

A discussion on the contradictions by Ilford in their statements about their use for digital printing may well be off-limits.
But as seen above it could bring up something of interest for us.

removed account4 · Jan 5, 2014

Mustafa Umut Sarac said:
Because I thought painted negatives or color digital negatives would have more control on the processes. Now I am continueing on Ortho Paper and colored negative.

what is ortho paper and colored negatives ?

black and white film that is hand colored in reverse and printed on ortho paper ?

orthochromatic isn't sensitive to the panchromatic black and white spectrum
sometimes it is only blue sensitive, sometimes only UV sensitive sometimes reds ..

if you are trying to create color images with black and white materials you are better off making
3 color separation negatives red green and blue ( with regular b/w film )
and projecting them onto color printing materials or going to dpug and learning how to make modern tri color images ..

not sure how hand colored black and white negatives would work with ortho papers ...
although i am interested in learning how

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Jan 5, 2014

John,

As you know Pyro Developers have stain effect and it works on Ortho Paper. I am trying to put that effect with colored negatives.Either with digital color negatives or hand painted negatives. If it is sensitive to narrow spectrum of blue , it can be analysed to find effects of various shades , stains of blue or it can be used to make semi light transparent , colored dots to control the diffusion.

Umut

Ronald Moravec · Jan 5, 2014

You can filter the color file, say yellow to deepen blues, so when converted to grey, the file suits the paper better.

I would filter, use covert to black.white, use levels to get good scale black to white, use mild contrast increase curve to punch it up some. This is almost the same as normal digital work flow

Bill Burk · Jan 5, 2014

As I understand this paper, it is a fixed grade paper. It was designed as a fixed grade paper, where the designed purpose is that you adjust contrast in the computer program to fit the paper perfectly. I've been interested in this paper because I am fascinated by the serendipity that a paper adapted to technology has brought me, as an analog photographer, a new paper that I want. Galerie is my favorite paper. Otherwise Galerie comes in Grades 2 and 3. This would be Grade 4. The fact it is panchromatic is sort of an inconvenience. But since I have an infrared viewer... it's not going to bother me. The fact it is fast is also going to make it harder for me to control... But I am looking forward to experimenting with it.

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Jan 5, 2014

Bill, Do you have an laser printer ? Prof.Pixel indicated that these papers made to expose with RGB lasers not white light. How do you think to use that paper ? Did you see anyone uses that paper as white light printng paper ?

Bill Burk · Jan 5, 2014

My idea would be to use the Omega DII with the Aristo grid light source that I already have. So I would use white light (it's really a teal color). Since I would be ignoring the purpose it is designed for, there is some risk that it "will not work" as well as I would like it to. But right now, I think that it would be splendid.

cowanw · Jan 5, 2014

Mustafa Umut Sarac said:
Bill, Do you have an laser printer ? Prof.Pixel indicated that these papers made to expose with RGB lasers not white light. How do you think to use that paper ? Did you see anyone uses that paper as white light printng paper ?

No. My only point is that if you have a colour (say red) and it is translated into a grey, it may not be the luminance of grey you think it should be.

removed account4 · Jan 6, 2014

Mustafa Umut Sarac said:
John,

As you know Pyro Developers have stain effect and it works on Ortho Paper. I am trying to put that effect with colored negatives.Either with digital color negatives or hand painted negatives. If it is sensitive to narrow spectrum of blue , it can be analysed to find effects of various shades , stains of blue or it can be used to make semi light transparent , colored dots to control the diffusion.

Umut

i don't use pyro developers and i have never heard of this.
seems strange seeing from what i hear, pyro stains are usually greenish
and the opposite of green is magenta ...

Bob Carnie · Jan 6, 2014

Bill Burk said:
As I understand this paper, it is a fixed grade paper. It was designed as a fixed grade paper, where the designed purpose is that you adjust contrast in the computer program to fit the paper perfectly. I've been interested in this paper because I am fascinated by the serendipity that a paper adapted to technology has brought me, as an analog photographer, a new paper that I want. Galerie is my favorite paper. Otherwise Galerie comes in Grades 2 and 3. This would be Grade 4. The fact it is panchromatic is sort of an inconvenience. But since I have an infrared viewer... it's not going to bother me. The fact it is fast is also going to make it harder for me to control... But I am looking forward to experimenting with it.

You are right on all counts , as I have been told by Harman.. Basically Grade 4 Galerie Paper with an extended red sensitivity. If you plan on using it Bill no safelights. Also not sure but I doubt it comes in cut sheets.

Simon R Galley · Jan 6, 2014

Dear All,

These very specialist coatings ( in RC and FB ) are designed for laser exposure ( very, very short exposures) and it is not made in sheet sizes as it is UNSUITABLE for conventional exposure and usage.

I can assure you it has been thouroughly tested outside of these parameters to see if it had any commercial or specialist application or opportunity, it does not and it will not be sold as cut sheets.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Jan 6, 2014

Thank you Simon. Some sells 8x10 sheets cut from long rolls and some wants to try these papers at their darkroom. What kind of problem they would face with ?

Umut

AgX · Jan 6, 2014

Simon R Galley said:
I can assure you it has been thouroughly tested outside of these parameters to see if it had any commercial or specialist application or opportunity, it does not.

But Bob Carnie used it in the classic way too :

I work exclusively with the Harman Paper for laser and exposure, I do not make RC prints though and that is consistent with my enlarger work.

Bob Carnie · Jan 6, 2014

No , I have never used the RC or Fiber digital paper under an enlarger.

I have only used it as intended with RGB laser exposure.

Others have asked me but I am not interested, I use Ilford Warmtone and MG4 for enlarger work.

AgX said:
Simon R Galley said:

I can assure you it has been thouroughly tested outside of these parameters to see if it had any commercial or specialist application or opportunity, it does not.

But Bob Carnie used it in the classic way too :

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Ilford says ''Color file is unsatisfactory for panchro bw paper''

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