Ilford Rapid vs Ilford Hypam fixer

hoffy · Dec 21, 2009

Howdy,

I have been meaning to buy my fixer in larger quantities, so the last time I was in at my local supplier, I asked about getting a 5L container. They advised me that they can get the Hypam fixer (which they had on the shelf) and according to them is exactly the same as the rapid fixer

So, my question is, is it?

John Shriver · Dec 21, 2009

Hypam is different from Rapid, as it is arranged to allow adding Hypam Hardener to make a hardening fixer. That said, both are ammonium thiosulfate rapid fixers, and thus very similar in use. Both give you the quicker wash times that are possible with a non-hardening fixer.

If you're looking for the best buy, that's Kodak Flexicolor C-41 fixer. Every bit satisfactory for B&W films (color films are harder to fix), and dirt cheap since it's a commodity product needed by every minilab that processes film. Enough to make 5 gallons is $8.95 at Adorama. A buck more at Calumet, but that's still almost free. It's liquid, so you can make it in small batches. Ask a local minilab where they buy it, since you don't want to pay shipping.

hoffy · Dec 21, 2009

John Shriver said:
Hypam is different from Rapid, as it is arranged to allow adding Hypam Hardener to make a hardening fixer. That said, both are ammonium thiosulfate rapid fixers, and thus very similar in use. Both give you the quicker wash times that are possible with a non-hardening fixer.

If you're looking for the best buy, that's Kodak Flexicolor C-41 fixer. Every bit satisfactory for B&W films (color films are harder to fix), and dirt cheap since it's a commodity product needed by every minilab that processes film. Enough to make 5 gallons is $8.95 at Adorama. A buck more at Calumet, but that's still almost free. It's liquid, so you can make it in small batches. Ask a local minilab where they buy it, since you don't want to pay shipping.

Edit - just re-read the response...

I am not sure whether it would be available or not. I know my local mini lab (as most of them) use Fuji products, but I am not sure whether this goes as far as fixers.

Martin Aislabie · Dec 22, 2009

hoffy said:
Howdy,

I have been meaning to buy my fixer in larger quantities, so the last time I was in at my local supplier, I asked about getting a 5L container. They advised me that they can get the Hypam fixer (which they had on the shelf) and according to them is exactly the same as the rapid fixer

So, my question is, is it?

Virtually the same.

There clearly are subtle differences between the two as Rapid Fix cannot accept an Emulsion Hardener where as Hypam can.

However, from a normal user perspective the two are identical in their usage.

Martin

Ian Grant · Dec 22, 2009

Hypam's just buffered to work with a hardener, for all practical purposes they are interchangeable unless you want to use a hardener.

Ian.

2F/2F · Dec 22, 2009

John Shriver said:
Hypam is different from Rapid, as it is arranged to allow adding Hypam Hardener to make a hardening fixer. That said, both are ammonium thiosulfate rapid fixers, and thus very similar in use. Both give you the quicker wash times that are possible with a non-hardening fixer.

If you're looking for the best buy, that's Kodak Flexicolor C-41 fixer. Every bit satisfactory for B&W films (color films are harder to fix), and dirt cheap since it's a commodity product needed by every minilab that processes film. Enough to make 5 gallons is $8.95 at Adorama. A buck more at Calumet, but that's still almost free. It's liquid, so you can make it in small batches. Ask a local minilab where they buy it, since you don't want to pay shipping.

Is Flexicolor a hardening fixer?

Should it be used at the standard C-41 dilution?

Is it OK to use at normal b/w processing temps?

When should it be chucked?

Is it OK for paper as well?

As for the OP, Hypam is effectively the same stuff, but allows a hardener to be added. It is also significantly cheaper, for some reason. I think the 5 L bottle of Hypam is about $25 at Freestyle, vs. about $35 for the same size bottle of Rapid Fixer. A 5 L bottle will make 25 L of film fixer or 50 L of paper fixer.

naugastyle · Dec 22, 2009

I'm curious about using C41 fixer with b/w paper as well. If it doesn't work, I have to buy b/w fixer anyway.

Ian Grant · Dec 22, 2009

Remember that Colour film is just 3 or 4 layers of essentially B&W emulsion with a colour coupler and dye sensitizer. You can turn any B&W film into a chromogenic film by processing in a Colour developer with a relevant colour coupler added. (I've done this commercially with prints).

So a C41 fixer is just a bog standard fixer, it's only cheap because it's usually sold to bulk users often via a different supply chain.

Ian

michaelbsc · Dec 22, 2009

Ian Grant said:
Hypam's just buffered to work with a hardener, for all practical purposes they are interchangeable unless you want to use a hardener.

I'm not sure how Ilford determines it, but rapid fixer has no published replenishment data (at least not that I know about), while Hypam does have replenishment specs. That said, I'm certain that pouring some fresh Rapid Fix in the bottle will help the stew if your Rapid Fix is becoming depleted. Might have to experiment (or work out the math based on published capacity) to get the ratio. But I don't see how that wouldn't work.

fschifano · Dec 22, 2009

I've been using C-41 fixer from Kodak for a long time, and it is perfectly fine for B&W work. Kodak's directions for using it in its intended application is to dilute the concentrate 1+4, but I've found that 1/2 strength, 1+9, works perfectly well for B&W papers and films. Fixing times are only slightly longer for B&W materials at the weaker strength, and there is the side benefit of having a lower concentration of fixing byproducts building up in the working solution before it should be discarded eliminating some waste. There is no hardener, and the ph of the working solution is almost neutral at about 6.5. It washes out more easily than a more acidic fixer and far more easily than a fixer with an incorporated hardener. So yes, you can use Kodak's Flexicolor fixer exactly as you would any other non-hardening rapid fixer. If you need a traditional sodium thiosulfate fixer for an alternative process, or a hardening fixer for whatever reason, then this is not for you. In practice though, almost no materials sold today require either.

michaelbsc · Dec 22, 2009

fschifano said:
I've been using C-41 fixer from Kodak for a long time, and it is perfectly fine for B&W work. Kodak's directions for using it in its intended application is to dilute the concentrate 1+4, but I've found that 1/2 strength, 1+9, works perfectly well for B&W papers and films.

OK, so clearly everyone (at least many) agrees this is a good option, and cheaper to boot. Plus, in my mind, it means I'm just set up with one more chemical when I start trying to do my own C41 next year.

And if it's good enough for B&W paper, is it also good for the RA-4 papers? Once I get C-41 figured out, that's next.

Is there a Kodak part number or something we can look for. Quite frankly, I don't even know where a one hour joint that still does 'film' can be found. Lots of places will take digital images and make prints in some kind of Fuji processor that I assume has some chemicals. (It's clearly not an inkjet printer.) But around here all film gets sent out, even 35mm. So asking to piggyback on a mini-lab's order isn't possible.

(On a humorous note, as film was falling apart with plummeting volumes one guy tried to *GIVE* me the Fuji mini-lab in his store if I would haul it away. It would have saved him the effort to dispose of it. I don't know what they cost, but it was obviously worth nothing by that point.)

fschifano · Dec 22, 2009

Believe me, C-41 is not a big stretch if you're already doing B&W. Temperature control and timing are more critical, and processing temperatures are higher at 100F. Other than that, it's a walk in the park. In some ways it is easier. It's a cookbook process with little to no wiggle room for tweaking the negatives. Follow the directions to the letter and you're spot on. It's basically a no-brainer.

Never having done RA-4, I can't say if Flexicolor Fixer and Replenisher will work. I'm inclined to think that you will not get good results if you do use it, since Kodak's chemistry for that process includes a combined bleach/fix rather than separate bleach and fix solutions.

The manufacturer's part number for Flexicolor fixer are 1693837 for the bottle to make 5 gallons of working solution, 1597392 for a cube of concentrate to make 25 gallons of working solution. Adorama sells both and ships the stuff too. See these links:

Dead Link Removed
Dead Link Removed

naugastyle · Dec 22, 2009

So good to hear. I have enough fixer for probably another month of b/w developing & printing and am currently using Tetenal C41 so I have blix instead of fix, but I wanted to get this at some point anyway. Love that this one bottle will serve all 3 purposes...might go to Adorama this weekend!

michaelbsc · Dec 23, 2009

fschifano said:
Believe me, C-41 is not a big stretch if you're already doing B&W. Temperature control and timing are more critical, and processing temperatures are higher at 100F.

This should be no problem. I've got a Phototherm that works flawlessly. Part of my reason for buying the thing was to start doing my own color work, but I just haven't gotten there yet.

My experience with the B&W side of using the Phototherm is that you can bet the mortgage money that today's process will be exactly like last weeks process assuming you don't screw up the chemicals or something. You *CAN* make mistakes with it, but you have to work at it. I expect that its C-41 results will be the same, repeatable as a quartz clock ticking. I've run it through the C-41 cycle a few times with just water in the supply bottles, and it goes through the cycle and maintains temperature exactly like the manual says.

MB

wogster · Dec 27, 2009

michaelbsc said:
I'm not sure how Ilford determines it, but rapid fixer has no published replenishment data (at least not that I know about), while Hypam does have replenishment specs. That said, I'm certain that pouring some fresh Rapid Fix in the bottle will help the stew if your Rapid Fix is becoming depleted. Might have to experiment (or work out the math based on published capacity) to get the ratio. But I don't see how that wouldn't work.

The problem with replenished fixer is that the undeveloped silver salts are largely dissolved into the fixer, and fixer has a limited capacity of silver before it is no longer useful. You need to therefore remove that silver in order to make the fixer useful again.

Ilford Rapid vs Ilford Hypam fixer

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