Ilford Purchased by Pemberstone Ventures Ltd

Slixtiesix · Sep 15, 2015

Michael R 1974 said:
Adox to restart ciba production, I heard.

Whaaaat? As for the Pemberstone purchase: At least it is a British investor, not an American or Chinese, so I hope for a sound sense of patriotism that will hopefully prevent them from neglecting the long heritage of the company. Hopefully...

xo-whiplock · Sep 15, 2015

MattKing said:
What I was trying to indicate was that it is certainly possible that the former owners of Harman may actually remain indirectly invested in Harman, if part of the sale price was an investment interest in Pemberstone.

Personally, I've been involved in a company that went through several owners, only to end up back in the hands of those that initiated the cycle turnovers. Business and finance can be quite confusing to just simple works like myself, but when one realizes that deals are made based on reducing liability and increasing profits, but also on the monetary system that encourages debt as an incentive to motivate efficiency in making profits, it becomes clear that decisions are made in light of this debt centric system, and not in a "free and clear" ideal that many are raise to believe in. The idea is that banks make great profits on interest on loans, and loans drive the industries. Companies can not try to be debt free, as this sets them up for undervalued stocks, and so LBO happen by banks and their minions to seek out (steal) profits from companies not picking these profits up that are just laying there to be had. Everyone benefits from a LBO if the value of the company is not overvalued and debt ratio is not excessive when the buyers seek loans to buy a company/corporation. The company/corporation needs to be able to pay the interest on the loans, and if they can't, then things shift to adjusting to making sure the bank gets its interest payments. IMO, banks have too much to say about what businesses can and can't do, and banks enable venture capital companies to "steal" legally. However, if a company needs venture capital to move forward, they make sure the company will be able to make interest payments before selling. Also, there's nothing saying Harman and Pemberstone are NOT together in placing Harman in a position to be sold later, while providing profits to both Harman and Pemberstone in the process. It's a lot like refinancing a house and selling it for a flip after you fix up the property.

pdeeh · Sep 15, 2015

destroya said:
Clearly I know nothing of real estate in England, but a private equity firm has a much bigger stick and deeper pockets which could influence redevelopment plans and approvals. .

Planning law in the UK is convoluted in the extreme.
Much much much bigger outfits than Pemb have fallen foul of it . I'm not sure what a big stick is in this context, but even the deepest pockets might not help

R.Gould · Sep 15, 2015

In all of this we can only makes guesses as to what might or might not happen at Harman/Ilford, and perhaps the speculation will only add fuel to the doom and gloom merchants, and might even harm Harman, in reality we can guess all we like, look at all possibilities, but only time will tell if we have anything to worry about or not, if in six months or a years time everything has changed with Ilford then that is the time to get all hot and bothered, maybe in six months or a years time everything will be fine, everyone will be wondering what all the fuss was about, hopefully the latter will apply, but lets just enjoy our photography, and everyone that uses Harman/Ilford materials get on with using them. Simon has left, no reason has been given, and unless he pops up here and gives a reason then we will never know why, maybe he wants a new challenge in his life, maybe he wanted to change direction for a while, maybe the others have the same reason, 10 years running a company like Ilford has taken it's toll on them and they simplu need a break, we all do at times, I know that 15 years ago I changed direction in my own life, just needed a change, had a great and suceesful business, but got bored and changed things around, so maybe time to stop speculating and get on with life and Photography

Ian Grant · Sep 15, 2015

Slixtiesix said:
Whaaaat? As for the Pemberstone purchase: At least it is a British investor, not an American or Chinese, so I hope for a sound sense of patriotism that will hopefully prevent them from neglecting the long heritage of the company. Hopefully...

It's also not a London based Venture Capital company, in fact it's quite local to me in Worcester.

Ian

xo-whiplock · Sep 15, 2015

Ian Grant said:
Ilford Imaging in Switzerland were a separate company and always have been, they were originally Tellko and bought by Ciba who later bought Ilford in the UK. Under Ciba-Geigy the two companies had close ties but made different products.

There's no link between Adox's taking over some of the old Ilford Imaging machinery in Marly, Switzerland, and Harma/Ilford in the UK.

Ian

Thank you for clearing that up. One can't know who is posting what without help like this to untwist those who post things meant to add to the confusion.

pentaxuser · Sep 15, 2015

Ian Grant said:
It's also not a London based Venture Capital company, in fact it's quite local to me in Worcester.

Ian

They better not be Wolves supporters then or sales in Brum will plummet

pentaxuser

BrianShaw · Sep 15, 2015

MartinCrabtree said:
Just for kicks I sent Ken Rockwell a message saying he missed the news of the day. Here's his response. And why I am concerned for the future of Ilford.

[not included: Wise words from K. Rockwell]

I know he is loved and appreciated here. So it won't hurt to let him know it is indeed "photo news." 17 pages in under 24 hours begs to differ. I considered an e-mail bomb but they track that stuff too easily now.

But isn't he correct? Nothing has happened to film or photography yet, except a lot of speculation about the future and the past.

Ian Grant · Sep 15, 2015

pentaxuser said:
They better not be Wolves supporters then or sales in Brum will plummet

pentaxuser

Blaspheme. More likely Worcester Warriors fans, a proper shaped ball and a true sport Bit like American football with no protection, but faster and more skilled

There's no FA (round ball) football in Worcester, they don't even have their own ground any more and Worcester City FC play just around the corner from me 15 miles from Worcester on the Harriers ground.

More importantly the fact that the new owners aren't London based is a better omen for them having a longer term futire.

Ian

RobC · Sep 15, 2015

How did we get onto football. No don't answer that.

Richard S. (rich815) · Sep 15, 2015

Hatchetman said:
Four senior managers off the payroll instantaneously...that has to save at least 500,000 pounds right off the bat.

So they were useless? In the likelihood they were not someone must do their jobs and will likely expect a salary.

blockend · Sep 15, 2015

It's sad that companies are no longer passed from father to son, the son having an investment in passing it to his son, and so on. I'm not one of those people who thinks all companies are the same in principle, film is a niche product selling to a village community. A worldwide village who all speak the same language, but a village nonetheless. Keep the villagers happy, and you have the makings of a company that could last a couple of generations at least.

I don't blame Simon and Co for taking the money while it was on offer - if indeed that's what's happened - but it's hard to swallow talk of opportunities without something concrete to hang on to. If Pemberstone emerge with an 800 ISO film or whatever, I'll swallow my words, but it's difficult to see how such risk squares with bicycle holidays. Cheshire real estate is probably the most expensive of any county in the north (professional footballers, media types). It's hard to see Ilford staying where it is long term.

flavio81 · Sep 15, 2015

Michael R 1974 said:
Adox to restart ciba production, I heard.

Adox to clone the Kodachrome films, i heard, as well.

Richard S. (rich815) · Sep 15, 2015

Michael R 1974 said:
(not really)

And Kodachrome too, maybe?

RobC · Sep 15, 2015

flavio81 said:
Adox to clone the Kodachrome films, i heard, as well.

Fuji TX1 has an option to give images the kodachrome look. Oooops, that was sacriledge.

Richard S. (rich815) · Sep 15, 2015

blockend said:
It's sad that companies are no longer passed from father to son, the son having an investment in passing it to his son, and so on...

Actually I read an article once that any of those companies that got large or fairly successful rarely got past the second son before being bought out, or often the third son drives it into the ground...

"The first generation builds the business, the second makes it a success, and the third wrecks it."

xo-whiplock · Sep 15, 2015

blockend said:
It's sad that companies are no longer passed from father to son, the son having an investment in passing it to his son, and so on. I'm not one of those people who thinks all companies are the same in principle, film is a niche product selling to a village community. A worldwide village who all speak the same language, but a village nonetheless. Keep the villagers happy, and you have the makings of a company that could last a couple of generations at least.

I don't blame Simon and Co for taking the money while it was on offer - if indeed that's what's happened - but it's hard to swallow talk of opportunities without something concrete to hang on to. If Pemberstone emerge with an 800 ISO film or whatever, I'll swallow my words, but it's difficult to see how such risk squares with bicycle holidays. Cheshire real estate is probably the most expensive of any county in the north (professional footballers, media types). It's hard to see Ilford staying where it is long term.

If the reality ever hits everyone that none of us "own" anything, and can never own anything simply because everything is not existing as "real value" but as "credit value." Or more exact, debt value. The old world was setup on real value, and banks have made sure everything is now theirs via loans and interest. This even more startling when one understands that loans are created from thin air, a number they punch in to a computer, that magically grows to the loan market by other banks taking an initial loan and creating more loans from it... all imaginary money for an imaginary monetary system. As long as well all agree to pay interest and principle, it all works fine for the banks, and just barely for consumers, in that we end up with no real value... the banks keep it and turn it over and over while creating ghost money.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0K5_JE_gOys

Curt · Sep 15, 2015

Peltigera said:
If I ever need complex financial advice, I will not be coming to APUG for it!

129 posts based on knowing nothing.

That's great!

peter k. · Sep 15, 2015

Ah yes.. this tread has gone ...
In the land of OZ.. Once upon a time...
and then I have no idea that I will be alive to develop the shots that I have not yet taken...
or, be intertwined, and entertained, more with the continuation of this thread, as only time will tell if I have any more shots within me, or the physical means to develop, or be capable to perceive what all this means! :munch:
Please continue on in the quest of clarity ... as we all await the outcome of what is to be will be ... :confused:

Curt · Sep 15, 2015

RattyMouse said:
I worked for a company in the past bought by private equity. They bought our company and essentially closed it down, selling off bits and pieces of us to our competitors. They made their money, got their profits, but left a trail of human carnage behind.

The last 6 months of my time at this company were spent literally throwing away parts of the company, filling up 30 foot long dumpsters day in and day out until there was nothing left to throw out. 90% of my coworkers all lost their jobs. I spent 6 years working there trying to build this company up and my final days were throwing it all away.

Talk about depressing.

Your answer is very much rose colored. Private equity can extract value from a company rather than build it up.

That sounds like a description of a mosquito, land out of nowhere, suck the life blood out, and leave the victim with malaria!

removed account4 · Sep 15, 2015

did they also buy out the guy in australia who
has a coating line in his garage?

Mike Crawford · Sep 15, 2015

Amongst all this speculation, rhetoric and even venom, I thought it would be fitting to thank Harman for getting this far since their buyout ten years ago. At that time, everyone was convinced that Ilford film, papers and chemicals would soon be gone. The five Harman directors have put a lot of work in to the business over the last ten years and would have made a lot of sacrifices to form the new company and raise the funds for the buyout. They have rescued the brand of Ilford, kept it in production, and by all accounts have left the company in a profitable state.

Why they have chosen to sell at this point is up to them, and what will happen next will be seen. As a professional printer I will have spent tens of thousands of pounds on Ilford materials in the last thirty years, (probably hundreds of thousands), so have a very strong interest in what happens next. What I can say, is that having worked directly with Harman on education programmes, paper testing and in the pre-digital days, exhibitions of printer's work, (they were fun!), they were always committed to analogue photography, and in selling the business, I would think that in doing so, would want to ensure there was a commitment from the new owners to carry on their work. This of course is my speculation, but as everyone else is doing so, I might as well join in. In an e mail I received from Harman yesterday, it states, 'What will this mean for you? Operationally, you can expect absolute continuity.' I do hope this is the case.

Personally I would like thank all of the five original directors for all their work, commitment and wish them and the new Harman well. Also remember, there are a lot of people in Moberley employed by Harman, so they probably are more concerned than anyone for 'absolute continuity' in the business. I'm certainly going to carry on using Ilford materials, (as well as Foma and Adox), in the hope that there is a long life assured for the company and the brand.

RobC · Sep 15, 2015

There were six directors in the buyout. Where is the missing one?

railwayman3 · Sep 15, 2015

As a retired Chartered Accountant with some experience in business, I'm far from optimistic.

Consider that the directors/shareholders are all over 50 (public info on UK Government Company Register), so not too young to retire. They, with their landlords, come up with a scheme to build a smaller modern factory to secure the future of the business, with the remainder of the surplus land developed for housing,

The Local Authority rejects the plan (nimby-ism?). Along comes a far-sighted VC company, who know the Locsl Authority will not hold out for ever and can afford to waitm with an offer for Harman....can you blame the shareholders for selling out, realising their investment and effort and shedding the stress.

Do we really believe that the VC company want (in their eyes) a funny little factory for an obsolete old process, when their sights are on a development of a few hundred houses in an affluent and expanding area of the country,

It's been fun while it lasted, but if, like me, you like and use Harman products, I suggest it's time to stock the freezer.

coigach · Sep 15, 2015

Ian Grant said:
Harman/Ilford has always been run by their senior management regardless of the actual ownership, that won't change except that Pemberstones will most likely also have their director(s) on the board. They will be relying on the expertise of existing Harman employees but they may well have additional expertise that will be beneficial to the company.

It's highly speculative and wrong to make assumptions that they are investing in a short term way.

Ian

Agree.

Folks are being far too negative and fuelling unhelpful speculation.

I love Ilford film, and will continue to use it. I hope to be using it as long as I'm able to make pictures.

Kudos to Harman maintaining contact here too (although given some of the daft speculation they must have taken a brave pill before doing so...).

Ilford Purchased by Pemberstone Ventures Ltd

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