Ilford Purchased by Pemberstone Ventures Ltd

alanrockwood · Sep 14, 2015

pbromaghin said:
...It's a very good bet that Simon and his fellow manager/owners want to cash in on the huge risk they took and on their decade of exhausting hard work...

With regard to motivation for selling, this is probably the most important comment made in the thread so far. I am very surprised it took so long in this thread for this obvious point to be made. A sell out is how the owners of a startup company make their money. (Loosely speaking, I include companies formed by management buyouts in the same boat as startups)

Basically, there are two main reasons for a closely held company to sell out. One is to avoid some kind of impending financial disaster, and the other is to cash out on one's investment and hard work. Those two reasons are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Regardless of what will happen to Ilford products in the end, one thing is almost certain, namely that big changes are in store. They may come in the short term, or they may come in the longer term. For one small company where I used to work the major changes came in a series of seismic events over a period of a relatively few short years. The final result was that after a year and a half the last owners of the company and/or technology got rid of every one of the original employees, except for one regional service person, and the product in question ultimately failed, in part because the original employees who knew how to design and build the product were let go.

Sal Santamaura · Sep 14, 2015

pentaxuser said:
...Such decisions are no longer Harman's if I have understood the terms of the purchase...

I've just picked this quote as an example of the misunderstanding in this thread.

HARMAN technology Ltd. is a corporate entity. It was, for the last decade, privately owned by five persons. Today it was announced that those five persons sold the corporation to Pemberstone Ventures. Pemberstone ventures now owns HARMAN technology Ltd. Such decisions, as well as all other future decisions/actions relating to HARMAN technology Ltd., belong entirely to HARMAN technology Ltd.'s new owners and no one else. The five former owners, unless they've been retained as employees and/or consultants, no longer have any connection with HARMAN, nor should they be referred to as "Harman."

I sent Simon email today asking whether he is still associated with HARMAN in any way and, regardless, wishing him well in the future. That engendered an automatic email reply titled "Out Of Office." It indicated that Simon is out of the office, giving no associated timeline, and instructed that email be directed to Peter Elton. Based on this, I suspect that, at least in Simon's case, he's no longer affiliated with HARMAN in any way.

I forwarded my message to Mr. Elton, asking that he forward it to Simon.

alanrockwood · Sep 14, 2015

MattKing said:
...The most recent statements from Harman (December 31, 2013) show net assets of approximately 7 million pounds...

That's pretty small potatoes. I wonder how much was paid for the company in the recent sale.

Xmas · Sep 14, 2015

alanrockwood said:
That's pretty small potatoes. I wonder how much was paid for the company in the recent sale.

The asset statement like the rest of the formal company statement is supposed to be realistic, like a 'sale price'... Though there is debate even amoung accountants what it should contain, eg how to allow for the 'value' of staff.

It should include 'good will'.

But if the terms of the lease allows the development of the site then the VCs will build and sell houses, and may eg ignore the film manufacture or sell of the kit for scrap.

Agfa Leverkusen was bought by VCs...

Roger Cole · Sep 14, 2015

Sal Santamaura said:
I sent Simon email today asking whether he is still associated with HARMAN in any way and, regardless, wishing him well in the future. That engendered an automatic email reply titled "Out Of Office." It indicated that Simon is out of the office, giving no associated timeline, and instructed that email be directed to Peter Elton. Based on this, I suspect that, at least in Simon's case, he's no longer affiliated with HARMAN in any way.

I forwarded my message to Mr. Elton, asking that he forward it to Simon.

Ouch.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk and 100% recycled electrons - because I care.

Xmas · Sep 14, 2015

APUGuser19 said:
And the big fish eats the little fish, and the people get scattered. That's why my little print shop has failed. The customers bought each other up, and took my work to their own vendors. I have observed in my 30+ years in business, that the last 7 has seen the rich get richer and the poor get poorer at a rate I've never seen before. I don't really blame Harmon. I hope they got out while there was something to get out with, for all their work. We've had a very unstable economy worldwide in the last years. Worry and fright are all there is. And on the other hand, the "filthy rich" have gotten "filthier richer". The in-between has been dried up. I hope the Harmon guys managed to put something in their pocket on their way out the door. But something tells me it ain't a lot, and it didn't come easy. Like selling 3-legged milking stools to farmers.
You should see the chicken farms out here now. A family farm doesn't have a prayer. These turkey and chicken houses now are like 3 hundred yards long, and there are 4 or 5 of these houses side-by side. When I first moved out here 18 years ago, The typical turkey farm was 2 or 3 houses a hundred yards long, built back in the 70's by farmers who used to range 500 or 1000 turkeys on their own acreage before that.
Now it's all mega corporate large-cap venturing. Good luck Harmon guys. If you're reading, enjoy your retirement (but watch your wallet). Wish I could join ya.

Well they kept the film coating line going for ten years.
The staff other than the directors/owners will be even more concerned than us customers...
Though in the UK they have minimum rights upon redundancy they are not wonderful.

Ai Print · Sep 14, 2015

Roger Cole said:
Ouch.

+1

I think I need to drop a grand in Ilford WTFB paper in my B&H basket, log out of here and get on with life...this is getting depressing.

Gerald C Koch · Sep 14, 2015

destroya said:
having worked with (not at) VC firms and knowing many VC's personally, in my mind this is bad news. they will do all they can to maximize profits, streamline operations and then try and take them public to cash out.

Unfortunately all too true!

Barry S · Sep 14, 2015

Wow, the baseless speculation and hysterics run wild in this thread. All we know is Harman has new ownership, but nothing about their management plans. Harman still exists as it did yesterday. :munch:

Roger Cole · Sep 14, 2015

That's true, but...

I had no idea the owners were so few in number, having been out of photography while the deal happened. I thought it was something more akin to a US ESOP or something. And I had hoped, even assumed, the existing management who were owners had been retained as employees and/or consultants as Sal mentioned. Simon's OOO autoreply does not auger well for that, nor does the lack of timeline. When I set OOO I specify my return date.

Even if they continue, if we lose Simon without having someone equally responsive available on APUG it's a net loss. Not nearly as bad as losing the company and products of course, but a loss.

MattKing · Sep 14, 2015

FWIW, all of the sales of private corporations that I have been involved in ended up completing at the last minute and involved exhausting last minute efforts.

So maybe Simon is catching up on missed sleep.

canuhead · Sep 14, 2015

Wouldn't it be a crazy twist if Kodak ends up being the last man standing lol. I don't use much Ilford product beyond Kentmere paper so I won't be as affected *IF* things do go south. Something I really don't see happening but what do I know ?

Xmas · Sep 14, 2015

MattKing said:
FWIW, all of the sales of private corporations that I have been involved in ended up completing at the last minute and involved exhausting last minute efforts.

So maybe Simon is catching up on missed sleep.

In first class on a Jumbo to Hawai?

BrianShaw · Sep 14, 2015

I wonder if Paul Simon will be writing a new song: momma don't take my FP-4 away...

Xmas · Sep 14, 2015

canuhead said:
Wouldn't it be a crazy twist if Kodak ends up being the last man standing lol. I don't use much Ilford product beyond Kentmere paper so I won't be as affected *IF* things do go south. Something I really don't see happening but what do I know ?

Five will get you three it is Foma...

RobC · Sep 14, 2015

Xmas said:
Five will get you three it is Foma...

Nope, Fuji. Maybe not B+W though.

RattyMouse · Sep 14, 2015

Barry S said:
Wow, the baseless speculation and hysterics run wild in this thread. All we know is Harman has new ownership, but nothing about their management plans. Harman still exists as it did yesterday. :munch:

Do you see *anyone* worried about Ilford today? No, neither do I.

What you apparently can't see is that people are worried about the *future*. Having Ilford owned by a company that by design, is interested ONLY in short term profits is very unsettling.

No equity company is thinking at all long term, 10 plus years. Why? Because they have no intention of owning the company that long so long term decisions wont be made.

Ken Nadvornick · Sep 14, 2015

Barry S said:
Wow, the baseless speculation and hysterics run wild in this thread. All we know is Harman has new ownership, but nothing about their management plans. Harman still exists as it did yesterday. :munch:

Worth noting, I think, is that film photographers everywhere were severely thrashed and abused by the Kodak experience. One of Diane Arbus' unauthorized biographies was titled An Emergency in Slow Motion. That's what the never-ending self-inflicted Kodak drama was. The ceaseless drip, drip, drip of Perez's water torture left deep scars on everyone's psyche.

That may be part of the reaction you see here.

The unspoken dread of maybe having to go through another painful series of analog reductions, this time with the magnificent full-spectrum Ilford product lines as the targets. Perez may have loved that exercise. But every other Kodak stakeholder hated it. Recall, the definition of "efficiency" is to do more with less.

Personally, I don't think I could go through that again.

Ken

Richard S. (rich815) · Sep 14, 2015

RattyMouse said:
This doesnt explain why Harman sold out. See the Leica example given above. Why sell the entire company?

$$$

BrianShaw · Sep 14, 2015

Richard S. (rich815) said:
$$$

Probably exactly correct.

winger · Sep 14, 2015

Sal Santamaura said:
I sent Simon email today asking whether he is still associated with HARMAN in any way and, regardless, wishing him well in the future. That engendered an automatic email reply titled "Out Of Office." It indicated that Simon is out of the office, giving no associated timeline, and instructed that email be directed to Peter Elton. Based on this, I suspect that, at least in Simon's case, he's no longer affiliated with HARMAN in any way.

I forwarded my message to Mr. Elton, asking that he forward it to Simon.

I see the Out of Office reply as being that Simon is not allowed to say anything about this at this time and that Peter Elton is to be the POC. I didn't see anything in the Press Release stating whether the current directors are staying on or leaving. That's something that's entirely up to the agreement they made. It is not automatic that they leave.

That said, of course I'm scared we could lose Ilford films, papers, and chemicals. That's mostly what I use. I've been around enough to know what is possible. I was also around when they nearly went belly up over 10 years ago (it was not just 10 ago, but a few more). They pulled it out then, so I do have hope. I also hope there's a way to convey the film community's feelings about the potential of losing them to the new owners.

Richard S. (rich815) · Sep 14, 2015

Is this good or bad news? Probably good because with this result perhaps Ilford was not in such great shape and without this purchase and infusion of cash/expertise might have been on the way out anyway. At least now maybe a chance of survival albeit a different direction.

Who knows? One thing I speculate is that since I cannot see a company like this easily broken up and sold off for quick profit they will likely "streamline" which means cuts or elimination of areas that make little money or lose money. I've the feeling we'll see a honing of the line of films and likely only see 3-4 emulsions, if I had to guess I'd say Delta 100/400 and HP5+, maybe XP2, or perhaps Delta 400 eliminated with people told to push Delta 100 if needed (like Fuji told us to do with Acros when they eliminated Neopan 400). As much as I love FP4+ if Plus-X had slow sales I'd guess FP4+ is likely fairly weak in sales vs the others I mention. And I doubt Pan F does much sales either compared to the Deltas and HP5+. I'd also guess the annual special run of unique sizes might have seen its last run this year. Probably see similar streamline of the developers too. Just guesses.

Barry S · Sep 14, 2015

Ken Nadvornick said:
Worth noting, I think, is that film photographers everywhere were severely thrashed and abused by the Kodak experience. One of Diane Arbus' unauthorized biographies was titled An Emergency in Slow Motion. That's what the never-ending self-inflicted Kodak drama was. The ceaseless drip, drip, drip of Perez's water torture left deep scars on everyone's psyche.

That may be part of the reaction you see here.

The unspoken dread of maybe having to go through another painful series of analog reductions, this time with the magnificent full-spectrum Ilford product lines as the targets. Perez may have loved that exercise. But every other Kodak stakeholder hated it. Recall, the definition of "efficiency" is to do more with less.

Personally, I don't think I could go through that again.

Ken

The differences between Kodak and Harman are stark. The fact they both manufacture film may be the only similarity. Not sure why anyone would expect them to follow the same trajectory.

#theskyisfalling

Sirius Glass · Sep 14, 2015

And so we wait and shoot film as we wait.

Roger Cole · Sep 14, 2015

The only Ilford products I really, really cannot do with out are, in order, Delta 3200 and...well, Delta 3200. But I'd hate to lose Pan F+ and HP5+ and FP4+ all of which I use or will use (I'll switch to HP5+ in 4x5 when I run out of TMY-2, given Kodak's sheet film prices now.)

But I sure love their paper. Not that I can't print on Adox (which I do like a lot, but wish they had one that was either cooler or cooled significantly more in selenium) and Foma, but MGWT is a wonderful paper and I was going to (still will barring announced changes) move to the new MGFB once my stock of MCC 110 is gone.

Ilford Purchased by Pemberstone Ventures Ltd

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