Ilford Multigrade & Selenium

I have been trying to selenium tone Ilford Multigrade fiber without success. Several threads here suggest that this is not a good combination. I'm not looking for a substantial color shift, just better d-max.
Has anyone experimented with different developers and/or selenium toners with this paper? Thanks for the suggestions.

I tone Ilford MG fibre in KRST 1+9 (diluted with water) for 6 minutes @ 24 degrees Celcius. Ever so slightly shift of tone to the cooler side with an increase of Dmax of about .10.
I found that if you don't give this paper a really good rinse in water after fixing, and then a thorough clearing in a hypo clearing bath, the paper stained in the selenium toner.

Works well for me at 1:20 (KRST) 6-8 minutes, depending on color shift I want..
I wash after dev/fix then second fix and straight into Selenium, then HCA, then final wash.

Matt...how much color shift do you get with that time and dilution?

I've gone to using 1:5 for 12 minutes at 75-80 degrees and it barely budges. I'm mixing the Selenium with water, although someone told me I would get more change if I mixed with HCA, but I'm not sure about that...?

Also, I go to selenium after fixing and then holding in a water bath until the printing session is over.

Multigrade doesn't tone strongly in selenium. Never has. The selenium does, however, eliminate that warm 'greenish' hue that the untoned print exhibits. There is a definite strengthening of the image but not the shift that other papers exhibit. I've found no difference between dilution with HCA or water. I use it for archival purposes and it serves that purpose - presumably! Some of the old Forte papers toned very strongly to a definite rust-red if you let it.

FWIW I dilute Kodak rapid-selenium 1:15 and tone for 15 minutes. Follow with a 5 min rinse, HCA then the final wash. Been doing that for years and frankly I'm not even sure where I got that dil. / time from. But it seems to work for me.

Depends on the type of Multigrade, normal multigrade will hardly be affected by Selenium toner. It will build up density but with no apprecible colour shift.

Multigrade Warm-tone will tone well in Selenium

Ian

Ian Grant said:

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Multigrade Warm-tone will tone well in Selenium

Ian

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Ian does this include Warmtone RC? Thanks

pentaxuser

What dilution of toner, and for how long had you been toning the prints?

In his book on toning, Tim Rudman included a graph from work done by Maco (producers of LP Selenia toner), showing that Dmax initially increases during toning, but after 5 - 6 minutes, Dmax decreases on further toning. The graph shown was for a dilution of 1+19.

Whoops!

I hadn't seen Tim Rudman's expose. I really haven't noticed a decrease in shadow densities with 15 minutes but, unfortunately, now I'm going to be looking for it. What I do see with Multigrade, ot most papers for that matter, is that a point beyond 10 minutes the image seems to 'pop'. I can't describe it in words, (which is why a picture's worth a thousand of 'em!) but the image appears suddenly to achieve an enhanced presence and realism. Ian is absolutely right, (like he needs ME to tell him that!) when he says that MG Warmtone reacts noticeably to selenium. The tones are beautiful, almost light sepia with this paper which is perfect for certain images.

Pentaxuser, any warm-tone paper responds to selenium tone RC or FB

Ian

Hi Bob. The Dmax decrease is from the maximum acheived during the toning. The graph from Maco runs out to 12 minutes, and at that time is still showing a slight increase in Dmax, but around 1/3 - 1/2 that acheived at maximum increase.

One point. The LP Selenia toner produced by Maco, is said to contain 3% sodium selenite, where others usually contain around 2%. As they always say - do what works for you . I brought it up here in case Renato had been toning for extended times, and taking the Dmax of the prints back down close to their original value.

Steve: Appreciate it. That's why I love this site. There's always someone has additional information which can be useful. I have to say it never even dawned on me that selenium toner could EVER reduce density! Strangely enough, since that recent thread on film testing that got a little terse and constipated I've been thinking a lot about the systems and procedures we "evolve" for our work and how much of it is based upon what we KNOW and how much is based upon what we ASSUME. This is definitely a case in point and it's sites like this which help.

Have to say too, that if I really did what works for me - the wife'd kick me out!!!!!

Selenium toner starts "reducing density" at the point where the colour starts changing from black to brown. Since warm shadows reflect more light than neutral shadows, a densitometer shows it as a reduced Dmax.

Which IMO says a little about the relevance of densitometry to print assessment...

BobNewYork said:

Have to say too, that if I really did what works for me - the wife'd kick me out!!!!!

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Now. Ain't that the truth

Ole said:

Selenium toner starts "reducing density" at the point where the colour starts changing from black to brown. Since warm shadows reflect more light than neutral shadows, a densitometer shows it as a reduced Dmax.

Which IMO says a little about the relevance of densitometry to print assessment...

Click to expand...

Good point.

Ian Grant said:

Pentaxuser, any warm-tone paper responds to selenium tone RC or FB

Ian

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Many thanks. I still have some Warmtone RC from the Ilford visit in 2006. It's time I tried it and maybe had a go with selenium as well.

pentaxuser

Doesn't one of Tim Rudman's books mention a chemical bath or bleach that allows Multigrade to selenium tone? Or you could go with a selenium sulfide (T-56) toner which will tone anything since you bleach the image off and redevelop it.

Hope this helps.
Mark

I have a question related to the last post.

Isnt it possible to bleach the print before bathing in the selenium toner? Do I have to bleach the print entirely or is it sufficient to bleach just a little bit the highlights?

If you read the technical papers of Ilford Multigrade RC/FB and Ilford Multrigrade Warmtone RC/FB, you will notice that Ilford says that "Ilford Multigrade" paper has been "designed" to withstand color and density changes while (selenium) toning, and "Ilford Multigrade Warmtone" is "designed" to "respond well" to different kinds of toning.

Hence, similar "resistance" to color and density changes can be seen with other toners as well. Just try to sepia tone normal "Ilford Multigrade" and "Ilford Multigrade Warmtone", there is a HUGE difference. You can not get the dramatic brown / orange color change of the warmtone variant with the normal paper... not even if you bleach the paper 100%.

Marco

http://www.boeringa.demon.nl

Dietmar Wolf said:

I have a question related to the last post.

Isnt it possible to bleach the print before bathing in the selenium toner? Do I have to bleach the print entirely or is it sufficient to bleach just a little bit the highlights?

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You can use bleach to reduce the overall density of the print somewhat, just make sure you re-fix and properly wash the print before selenium toning.

Please note that bleaching is NOT a required step (like in two bath bleach / redevelop sepia toning) to be able to tone. If you bleach the image entirely and re-fix, you will have lost your image for ever!!! There will be no metallic silver left to tone, nor will you be able to redevelop it in developer or in a thiourea sepia toning bath.

Marco

http://www.boeringa.demon.nl

The type of bleach and redeveloper can significantly influence the image tone and subsequent image colour, and also make a "Neutral tone" paper susceptible to Selenium toning.

The usual bleach is potassium bromide & sodium ferricyanide, but substitute sodium chloride for the bromide and you will get significant warmth redeveloping in a warm tone developer.

Another route is use Ilford IT-8, which bleaches in a bichromate, hydrochloric acid bath followed by a pyrocatechin developer, this will selenium tone as well.

Ian

Marco B said:

You can use bleach to reduce the overall density of the print somewhat, just make sure you re-fix and properly wash the print before selenium toning.

Please note that bleaching is NOT a required step (like in two bath bleach / redevelop sepia toning) to be able to tone. If you bleach the image entirely and re-fix, you will have lost your image for ever!!! There will be no metallic silver left to tone, nor will you be able to redevelop it in developer or in a thiourea sepia toning bath.

Marco

http://www.boeringa.demon.nl

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For Dietmar - Bleaching before selenium toning

Bleaching prints before selenium toning can provide a multitude of variations.

If bleaching, then toning immediately, you need to use a very dilute bleach and pull the print when you get the barest lightening in the highlights. Then wash and tone (fixing is not required). This generally gives a subtle split, cooling the shadows, and giving warmer mid-tones and highlights.

Another variation is complete bleaching with redevelopment before toning. This allows you to "play" with the silver in the image, and change its characteristics. For example, redeveloping a cooltone, or neutral paper with a warmtone developer.

Or vary the bleach used. I have a collection of ferri bleaches for this; one containing potassium bromide, one a mixture of pot bromide and sodium chloride (not table salt - too many additives), and one containing potassium iodide. Tim Rudman also suggests using a dichromate bleach, as used for dichromate intensification, for persuading difficult papers to give deep browns when split toning (as also mentioned by Ian ).

A little info on the bleaches I use. I make them up from a stock solution of potassium ferricyanide (10%).

For a strong bleach, where I am going for full bleaching I will dilute one part with four of water and add around ten grams of KBr per litre. For a quick but more controllable bleach, I will go with one part of ferri plus nine of water, and around five grams of KBr per litre; for more control when just aiming for the highlights, I will dilute this latter bleach 1:1, or 1:2 with water.

For an iodide bleach, in the strong version I will add around five to six grams of KI per litre, for the weaker bleach, three or four grams per litre.

For the chloride bleach, I will add sodium chloride at around one to two times the weight of KBr added (i.e 5g KBr, then I might add from 5g to 10g NaCl).

snallan said:

Or vary the bleach used.

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Interesting Steve, but what is the effect of using the different bleaches (KBr,KI,KCl,Dichromate), can you elaborate a bit further on that?

Marco
http://www.boeringa.demon.nl

Marco, in the post before Steve's I mentioned that chloride will give you warmer tone, it really depends on the paper with KI. The dichromate gives a characteristic yellow brown stain and depending on what developer you sue the final colour can be varied widely. The Pyrocatechin developer used as part of IT-8 give very rich olive brown tones

There are so many variables and different papers will give very different results so really its a case of trying for yourself.

Ian

I was parusing the AA website and came across something I found interesting-------Alan Ross uses Ilford MG to print the Yosemite Special Edition Photographs from the original negatives and he tones the prints in Kodak Selenium toner at 1:10 in a working dilution of Zonal Pro Archival Rinse. He tones for the time that "the prints acquire sufficient density and color."

I have yet to print with FB but I am making the switch from RC with the arrival of my new enlarger and I have some MG IV fiber ready and waiting--I'm excited to see the results.

Hi Marco, sorry for the delay in getting back to you, I have been laid up in bed .

Anyway, about the bleaching, the following descriptions are based on notes from tests using Ilford MGIV RC. So, despite being on RC paper, will hopefully also be of some use to Renato.

The toner used was Fotospeed selenium toner, diluted 1+8. Toning time for all tests was ten minutes. The bleaches were all based on my 1+9 dilution from stock, further diluted 1+2, giving a working dilution of 1:29. From my notes, I didn't do the bleaching by eye, but for around 45 seconds. If you wait until you see the highlights bleaching, you are going to end up with lost highlights, as most of the modern direct toners contain ammonium thiosulphate which will fix out the bleached silver.

If I was to pre-bleach before selenium toning, I would allow an extra quarter stop or so in exposure, to protect the highlights. As they are very easily lost with this technique.

Straight toning enhanced Dmax and contrast, the colour in the shadows moving toward the slightest cold, bluish aubergine. The prints looked brighter, with more substantial shadows.

Ferri/Bromide bleach. Improved Dmax over the untoned print, but not quite as good as the straight selenium toned prints. Appears brighter, and more contrasty than the straight selenium prints. Slightly warmer, with a cool mushroom colour. Care needed as the highlights can quickly be lost.

Ferri/ChloroBromide bleach (ie. around 10g NaCl added to the bromide bleach). Dmax appears similar to the straight bromide bleach, as does the contrast. The prints are much warmer (as also mentioned by Ian, above), approaching more of a creamy beige, the colour appears deeper, more satisfying in some way . Midtones appear more "open" than the straight toned prints. Takes the highlights out nearly as quickly as the bromide bleach.

Ferri/Iodide bleach. Dmax is closer to that of the straight toned prints, but contrast appears better. The shadows are a slightly warmer purple, and the midtones and highlights are just slightly warmer than the straight toned prints. Like the chlorobromide bleach, the midtones appear more open. Doesn't seem to take the highlights out as quickly as the bromide bleach, but care is still needed.

Why the colour varies with pre-bleaching, I don't know. Whether the selenium has time to react with the some of the silver in the halide before it gets fixed out, whether the speed of the bleaches affect the amount and size of the silver grains bleached, or whether there is some other mechanism, I don't know. If I had the lab facilities it would be fun to investigate .

As for full bleaching with redevelopment, the variations are huge. And will depend upon the emulsion, paper, and developing agents used, Redeveloping with warmtone developers, or developers with warmtone additives, has given me much warmer, brown images. Sometimes with deep purple shadows. This is an area for experimentation using the papers, and developers to hand.

I havn't tried the dichromate bleaches, but from Ian's experience would appear to give very satisfying warmtone results.

As Ian says, the variables and combinations are so vast, that experimentation using the materials to hand is the best way to proceed. The experience of others can only really be used as pointers in such a rich area for experimentation. If I can manage to get scans that in any way approach the reality of the colour and contrast in the prints, I will post them for reference (but I don't hold out much hope, the variations are pretty subtle ).

One thing, keep copious notes. When you get something stunning, it helps to know exactly how you got that result .