Ilford Multigrade - Getting to Grade 5

Photographica · Aug 27, 2006

I'm conducting contrast tests on Ilford Multigrade MG IV FB using Dektol 1:2. I've got a Chromega D Color head for the contrast filters and extra sheet filters to get extra magenta.

I'm contact printing a 31 step tablet negative on the paper for tests and measuring the reflected density from the contact prints.

My problem is that I can barely get to Grade 5 using all of the color head magenta, 150, and another 150 with sheet filters. Measuring the density range (distinguishable steps) with the densitometer, I get 1.5 with 0 filter, 1.3 with M25, 1.1 with M50, .9 with M150, .8 with M200, and .7 with M300.

Taking a shot in the dark, I tried using PF130 stock, from the Photographer's Formulary and got a little less than .7 with M300 (I'm calling it 6.5, my Grade 5 target).

Has anyone else gotten similar results? I may be on the upper end of the Ilford Multigrade paper range and would like to check to see if anyone has had similar numbers.

I've searched Apug for an answer but haven't found a thread with contrast measurement numbers. If this road has been traveled before on Apug, please point me in the right direction.

Cheers,
Bill Riley

Bob F. · Aug 27, 2006

Somewhere here (OK found it: (there was a url link here which no longer exists) ) I have plotted MGIV FB and Fineprint FB for grades 00 and 5 - don't know if there is sufficient detail for you to calculate the density range of the MGIV. I just had a look and the original spreadsheet has gone AWOL. X-axis is 1/2 stop steps on the step wedge, developer is homebrew Ansco 130 1+1.

Never bothered to find out the density range: I've no idea what it should be, or what points from which to measure it, or how to convert to the Ilford published ISO ranges.

Cheers, Bob.

Donald Miller · Aug 27, 2006

While I have not tested this paper, I suspect that you are reaching the upper limits of that paper with the diffusion light source that you are using. You would get more out of the paper if you were to use a condenser source and still more yet if you were to use a point light in conjuncton with condenser source.

David A. Goldfarb · Aug 27, 2006

Is it worth testing for? How often do you really need grade 5? If you do have a problem neg like this, it probably makes more sense to think creatively about how to work with that neg.

Normally, if I had a neg that flat, I would toss it and print some other neg. If it happened to have Elvis holding today's New York Times as he was being transported into a space ship, I guess I would start thinking about how best to intensify the neg, develop the print with a stronger concentration of developer, print dark and bleach back the whites, or use other printing controls to raise contrast.

glennfromwy · Aug 27, 2006

I don't understand the tests. I'm not that educated in that. I agree with David, however. You will find that VC fiber paper, Ilford is my basis, does not reach the dense black that RC paper is capable of. This in itself sounds to me like it would lower the contrast index. Correct? I only have one reason for ever using grade 5. That is to make sure prints from Kodalith negs are as black and as white as possible. Not hard using that film anyway.

donbga · Aug 27, 2006

Photographica said:
I'm conducting contrast tests on Ilford Multigrade MG IV FB using Dektol 1:2. I've got a Chromega D Color head for the contrast filters and extra sheet filters to get extra magenta.

I'm contact printing a 31 step tablet negative on the paper for tests and measuring the reflected density from the contact prints.

My problem is that I can barely get to Grade 5 using all of the color head magenta, 150, and another 150 with sheet filters. Measuring the density range (distinguishable steps) with the densitometer, I get 1.5 with 0 filter, 1.3 with M25, 1.1 with M50, .9 with M150, .8 with M200, and .7 with M300.

Taking a shot in the dark, I tried using PF130 stock, from the Photographer's Formulary and got a little less than .7 with M300 (I'm calling it 6.5, my Grade 5 target).

Has anyone else gotten similar results? I may be on the upper end of the Ilford Multigrade paper range and would like to check to see if anyone has had similar numbers.

I've searched Apug for an answer but haven't found a thread with contrast measurement numbers. If this road has been traveled before on Apug, please point me in the right direction.

Cheers,
Bill Riley

It's been my experience that you can't get a grade 5 with just a color dichro head.

Photographica · Aug 27, 2006

David and Glen you make excellent points about challenging why one would even need to go to Grade 5. (Actually I do have a negative of Elivs on a spaceship. The shot was taken rather quickly and it's not all that sharp and it is extremely low contrast... but that isn't why I'm on to all this testing.)

You guys are right...

I'm calibrating for unsharp masks and the upper bound for a couple of my sandwiches (very low contrast when the neg and mask are combined) take me close to the grade 5 area.
I'm not really going for the dark dark blacks...

Thanks for the input....

Best
Bill Riley

Photographica · Aug 27, 2006

Donald Miller said:
While I have not tested this paper, I suspect that you are reaching the upper limits of that paper with the diffusion light source that you are using. You would get more out of the paper if you were to use a condenser source and still more yet if you were to use a point light in conjuncton with condenser source.

I think you're right Donald. I expected to be able to get up to grade 5 a little easier but in reflection, with the diffusion light source, I'm probably lucky to get as far as I got.

Thanks for the feedback....

Bill Riley

Photographica · Aug 27, 2006

Bob F. said:
Somewhere here (OK found it: (there was a url link here which no longer exists) ) I have plotted MGIV FB and Fineprint FB for grades 00 and 5 - don't know if there is sufficient detail for you to calculate the density range of the MGIV. I just had a look and the original spreadsheet has gone AWOL. X-axis is 1/2 stop steps on the step wedge, developer is homebrew Ansco 130 1+1.

Cheers, Bob.

Thanks Bob !!!
I got the chart and I'll study it. I'll try to lay it over my data... my steps are in 1/3 stops but it wont be hard to cross to the chart. I think this is exactly what I was looking for...

Bill Riley

Donald Miller · Aug 27, 2006

Bill,

I assume that you have transmission densitometric measurement capability since you have reflection. If you measure the scale of the paper and then arrive at the density range of the unsharp mask and negative combination that matches the scale of the paper, it doesn't make any difference whether you get to grade five or not.

For instance if you have a negative that has a density range of 1.75 and an unsharp mask with a peak density of .35 (net density range of 1.40) you will print at about grade one with the figures that you posted earlier. Or if you have a negative with a density range of 1.65 and an unsharp mask with a peak density of .45 you will have a net density of 1.20 which should put you in the grade two and one half range.

The key is always matching the scale of the paper...whether that is USM or not.

Photographica · Aug 27, 2006

donbga said:
It's been my experience that you can't get a grade 5 with just a color dichro head.

I think you're right Don. I'm just trying to put some data around it and see how close I can get....

Thanks,
Bill Riley

Photographica · Aug 27, 2006

Donald Miller said:
Bill,

For instance if you have a negative that has a density range of 1.75 and an unsharp mask with a peak density of .35 (net density range of 1.40) you will print at about grade one with the figures that you posted earlier. Or if you have a negative with a density range of 1.65 and an unsharp mask with a peak density of .45 you will have a net density of 1.20 which should put you in the grade two and one half range.

The key is always matching the scale of the paper...whether that is USM or not.

Donald,

I've got a couple of negatives right around 1.75 but I was thinking of building a mask with a range of closer to .55 or even a little higher to see what the extremes look like. I probably still don't need to get to grade 5 ... I'm just looking to find my upper boundary.

I'm in the process of calibrating my process now as well as learning a lot about controlling the whole process.

Thanks for the comments.

Bill Riley

Photographica · Aug 27, 2006

Donald Miller said:
Bill,

I assume that you have transmission densitometric measurement capability since you have reflection. If you measure the scale of the paper and then arrive at the density range of the unsharp mask and negative combination that matches the scale of the paper, it doesn't make any difference whether you get to grade five or not.

Donald,
Maybe it's because it's getting late...
I've read your last comment about 20 times and the first paragraph finally fired a neuron... I got it....

You're dead on... The final range of the mask will determine how high I need to get and since the mask is under my control in the lab, I should be able to park the final print contrast at where ever my upper limit happens to be.

What do I give up by limiting the mask range I wonder.... local contrast???

I know if I get too much effect from the unsharp mask I will get a hallo effect around the transitions from dark to light areas. loosing this would be a good thing.

Thanks a million Donald !!!

Bill Riley

Roger Hicks · Aug 28, 2006

Dear Bill,

A colour dichroic will not give the maximum the paper can deliver.

Nor will most dedicated VC heads, though they will often give a bit more.

A grade 5 filter will give more again, and is what we use when we want maximum contrast with a given developer.

Grade 5 paper will give still more, and we keep some for desperate cases and special effects. The contrast doesn't decline with age, so properly stored (not even chilled) paper should last for years.

Cheers,

Roger (www.rogerandfrances.com)

Ilford Multigrade - Getting to Grade 5

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