Ilford ID-3 and Beutler

Harold33 · Aug 29, 2014

I was surprised to see how good an old-fashioned carbonate developer like Ilford ID-3 (= Kodak D-165) can be: very good compensating effet, superb mid-tone gradation and nice definition. The grain is much coarser than in a D76-like developer but I'm not disturbed by that.

Making some experiments with dilutions, I realized that ID3 diluted 1+5 is very close to... Beutler 1+8:

ID3 1+5 // Beutler 1+8

metol 1 gr. // 1,1 gr.
sodium sulfite anh. 5 gr. // 5,5 gr.
sodium carbonate 6,25 gr. // 5,5 gr.
potassium brom. 0,17 gr. // ---

I didn't expected that. In my (limited) experience, Beutler's is good for edge effect but gradation is not outstanding.

timor · Aug 29, 2014

Beutler is 1+1+8 so divide by 10, not 9. It is even closer.

Gerald C Koch · Aug 29, 2014

Kodak DK-50 also makes a good acutance developer. Dilute it 1+4 with the amount of Kodalk raised to its original concentration of 10 g/l. In other words

Metol 0.5 g
Sodium Sulfite (anhydrous) 6 g
Hydroquinone 0.5 g
Balanced Alkali 10 g
Potassium Bromide 0.1 g
Cold water to make 1L

timor · Aug 29, 2014

Gerald C Koch said:
Metol 0.5 g
Sodium Sulfite (anhydrous) 6 g
Hydroquinone 0.5 g
Balanced Alkali 10 g
Potassium Bromide 0.1 g
Cold water to make 1L

What time for let say TMX ?

Gerald C Koch · Aug 29, 2014

timor said:
What time for let say TMX ?

The use of dilute DK-50 was suggested by Geofrey Crawly many years ago in the BJP. At the suggested dilution the developer should be similar to the discontinued Neofin Red. Development times given were: FP4 8-9 mins @ 20°C, Pan-X 10-12 mins, Tri-X 13 mins.

I personally do not use any of the TMax films so can't help there.

timor · Aug 30, 2014

Gerald C Koch said:
I personally do not use any of the TMax films so can't help there.

To bad for me. I see time around 7 min in 20C, but with this amount of sodium metaborate won't be it on he contrasty side ?

Rudeofus · Aug 30, 2014

Even if the correct time is 4 minutes or 12 minutes, and you develop for 7 (or 5, or 10) minutes, you should still get printable negs. From inspection of the resulting negs you will quickly find the dev time most suitable for your dev setup (temperature, agitation regime, time needed for pouring liquids, ...), without losing any rolls.

There are very few developers that will give you completely over- or underdeveloped results with 10 minutes @ 20°C development, and those few are usually described and labeled as such ("tropical developer", "very low contrast developer", "for stand development", "very active developer").

Gerald C Koch · Aug 30, 2014

From Crawley's suggested times I would first try 10 min. Shoot a test roll and develop a few frames. It should be easy to narrow in on the correct time. Some people fine tune their development routinely for new films, not completely trusting published times.

timor · Aug 30, 2014

Rudeofus said:
Even if the correct time is 4 minutes or 12 minutes, and you develop for 7 (or 5, or 10) minutes, you should still get printable negs. From inspection of the resulting negs you will quickly find the dev time most suitable for your dev setup (temperature, agitation regime, time needed for pouring liquids, ...), without losing any rolls.

Off course I gonna do it, but the idea is to hit the mark as close as possible in order to not to waste too much resources. And with TMX, if overdeveloped too much this printable negs are questionable as the highlights are easily blocked. TMX gives superb results, but the exposition and development have to be right on the nose.

Gerald C Koch · Aug 31, 2014

I believe Willi Beutler's is best reserved for the slow-speed films.

Neofin at one time marketed two film developers based on the work of Willi Beutler. These were Neofin Blue and Neofin Red. As the poster states Blue was intended for slow films and designed to produce maximum sharpness. The composition of the Blue developer has changed over the years from its original use of a single developing agent. Red, however, was designed for faster films and contained hydroquine in addition to the Metol used in Blue.

Let's be very clear that there is no connection between Neofin Blue and the Beutler formula despite what one manufacturer of kits states in their catalog. Other than them both being based on the idea of a very dilute developer there is no longer any resemblence between the two formulas.

Gerald C Koch · Aug 31, 2014

Besides film and paper developers there is another group of developers called universal[/I developers]. These are intended for use with both films and papers. D-72 is such a developer and can be used to develop film. It can be diluted 1+5, 1+7, and 1+9 with water for this purpose. Conveniently the average developing times @ 20C are 6, 8, and 10 minutes respectively, which are, of course, the total dilution volumes. For 35mm films the more dilute version is recommended to reduce granularity.

Harold33 · Aug 31, 2014

The problem (at least for me) is that I don't understand why and how concentration -- or dilution -- transform a developer into another developer ?

Gerald C Koch · Aug 31, 2014

Harold33 said:
The problem (at least for me) is that I don't understand why and how concentration -- or dilution -- transform a developer into another developer ?

Changes in pH and concentration cause a slowing of the development process. This leads to greater edge effects and greater perceived sharpness. Grain size is also reduced by the lower activity of the developer. On another thread the OP wanted greater grain. The answer is a more concentrated and higher pH developer like a print developer (D-72).

Another example would be D-23 and D-25. The lower alkalinity of the D-25 produces finer grain (and also lower film speed) than the D-23 even though the two developers have very similar formulas.

Ilford ID-3 and Beutler

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