ilford hypam fixer as "one shot"

timeUnit · Oct 3, 2005

I'd like to try "one shot" fixing with 135- and 120-type films. I have ilford hypam fixer (right now, anyway) and I'm wondering what dilution to use? I should be able to dilute it much more than the 1+9 stated on the box, right? Otherwise it would be a waste of money and environment...

Any suggestions?

Thanks a lot!

*henning

KenM · Oct 3, 2005

Well, to determine your fixing times based on dilution, just make up a dilution and fix for twice the clearing time of a scrap piece of film. That should do it.

However, I wouldn't stray too far from the recommended dilutions. If you fix for too long, you could end up affecting the negatives.

timeUnit · Oct 3, 2005

well, you know, I'm a lazy bastard, so I thought someone might have tried it before me and could provide some guidelines...

your suggestion is very good, it's the way to go if no-one chimes in with additional info. thanks!

jp80874 · Oct 3, 2005

My jug of the stuff says 1-4 for film. The 1-9 is the alternative for either RC or fiber paper. For film because I use Pyro in a Jobo I use one 350 cc shot, one time.

My personal preference when doing any volume of paper is to use the higher concentration so I don't have to dispose of so much fluid so often. I have a septic tank and take the spent fixer to university when I go to class. They run it through their silver filter.

John Powers

Tom Hoskinson · Oct 3, 2005

As a starting point:

1. Take 30ml of Hypam and add sufficient water to make a total of 500ml.

2. Take about 50ml of this mixture and drop a small piece of exposed film into it (35mm film leader is good). Time how long it takes for the film to completely clear.

3. If the film does not clear completely - or takes too long to clear, add 10ml of Hypam to the remaining 450 ml of mix and repeat Step 2.

4. Repeat Step 3 as many times as necessary.

5. When the exposed test film clears in a reasonable amount of time, you should have a dilution capable of clearing AT LEAST one 36 exposure roll of 35mm film or one roll of 120 film or AT LEAST two sheets of 4x5 film.

You can use the same basic process with a 60% solution of Ammonium Thiosulfate or with Sodium Thiosulfate (dry powder).

If you use Sodium Thiosulfate, start with 20 or 30 grams of Sodium Thiosulfate per 500ml of water. Then follow the testing/adjustment procedure given above.

Donald Qualls · Oct 3, 2005

I've used Ilford Rapid Fixer, normally diluted 1+4 for film, at 1+24 in a monobath (an inherently one-shot operation), and still got full fixing in under ten minutes (probably quite a bit under, but I didn't open the tank any sooner). By my caclulation from Ilford's published capacity, at that dilution, the fixer should have capacity for about 2 rolls in the 8 ounces required for 35 mm, which is about as fine as I'd want to cut it.

Plain hypo fixer is both slower and has less capacity (especially on T-grain films) than rapid fixer, but it should still be fine to dilute it to give a diluted capacity of twice the amount of film in the tank (if you don't mind waiting a good long time for full fixing). I don't have capacity on hand, but the above suggestion, running from 4-6%, is about where I'd expect the sweet spot to be for one-shot use of plain hypo.

gbroadbridge · Oct 3, 2005

timeUnit said:
I'd like to try "one shot" fixing with 135- and 120-type films. I have ilford hypam fixer (right now, anyway) and I'm wondering what dilution to use? I should be able to dilute it much more than the 1+9 stated on the box, right? Otherwise it would be a waste of money and environment...

The box stated dilution is 1+4 for film. 1+9 is only an alternative for paper.

If I were to do it one-shot, I'd use the recommended dilution. I don't really understand the need though, 500ml of fixer mixed 1+4 costs what? 50 cents? And can fix 7 x 135 films

Tom Hoskinson · Oct 3, 2005

I have given the detailed procedure for determining the minimum amount of fixer concentrate required to properly fix one roll of film (or 2 sheets of 4x5 or 1 sheet of 8x10).

I personally apply this information by adding the correct amount of concentrate directly to the developer in my tank or tray (after development is complete, of course). This makes it a true one-shot usage of the fixer concentrate and eliminates the stop bath or water rinse after the development step.

gbroadbridge · Oct 3, 2005

That's a very interesting method Tom. One I should try.

I would worry about the longevity of negatives processed in this way and would be interested in any test results for residual fixer and silver.

Graham

Tom Hoskinson · Oct 4, 2005

Testing for residuals is something one should always do. It is also important to remember that all films are NOT the same - they often have different fixing time requirements. Testing a small piece of each film type you are using for its complete clearing time in fresh fixer (followed by fixing your developed negatives on that film type in fresh fixer) is excellent insurance that you will not have residual unfixed silver.

Unremoved fixer is the result of incomplete washing post fixing.

timeUnit · Oct 4, 2005

gbroadbridge,

the reason I'd like to try this is to make sure the fixer is good and fresh. By using a newly mixed fixer each time I can be certain of this. The cost will be slighty higher, I think. If I use 30 ml of fresh fixer for each film, I will get ~16 films on 500 ml fixer. Diluted 1+4 I will get about 18 films on 500 ml. BTW, 500 ml of fixer diluted 1+4 is about 2.5 USD in Sweden, if you don't buy bigger cans. Getting the 5 litre can will cost me about 1 USD per 500 ml (1+4). But in that case I will have to worry about it going bad before I spend it, as I don't develop 160 rolls of film in less than a year.

Tom,

thank you very much for your info! I will try this soon. Can one assume that the fixing times for say Tri-X 135 and 120-films are identical? The 120-film has a thinner base, but maybe that doesn't matter?

Thanks all for your input! (Gotta love the internet, and of course APUG!)

*h

Tom Hoskinson · Oct 4, 2005

timeUnit said:
Tom,

thank you very much for your info! I will try this soon. Can one assume that the fixing times for say Tri-X 135 and 120-films are identical? The 120-film has a thinner base, but maybe that doesn't matter?

Thanks all for your input! (Gotta love the internet, and of course APUG!)

*h

I have not tested the fixing time response of the current Tri-X roll films. In the past, Kodak emulsions often changed their characteristics as you moved from one format to another. Best to test and make sure.

timeUnit · Oct 4, 2005

Clearing time for Fuji Neopan Acros 120-type in Hypam 30 ml + 470 ml water at 20°C was 5,5 minutes. I did not pursue other diltutions as I figured I need to add at least 20 ml of Hypam to get an "acceptable" clearing time, in my case not more than 3 minutes. In those dilutions it will be too expensive, IMO.

Thanks for the input, though!

Tom Hoskinson · Oct 4, 2005

timeUnit said:
Clearing time for Fuji Neopan Acros 120-type in Hypam 30 ml + 470 ml water at 20°C was 5,5 minutes. I did not pursue other diltutions as I figured I need to add at least 20 ml of Hypam to get an "acceptable" clearing time, in my case not more than 3 minutes. In those dilutions it will be too expensive, IMO.

Thanks for the input, though!

You're welcome!

However, if the film was completely cleared in 5 1/2 minutes, that is excellent fixer performance at that dilution. Once the film is completely clear, there is no more silver in the film! The silver is all in the fixer.

timeUnit · Oct 5, 2005

Tom,

it was completely cleared, but there was a purple tint to the film base that I don't normally see with Acros. This may be because I didn't do my customary presoak on the strip, nor did I go through the usual HCA and wash afterwards.

If the clearing time was 5,5 mins, that means I should fix for about 10 mins, right?

Tom Hoskinson · Oct 5, 2005

timeUnit said:
Tom,

it was completely cleared, but there was a purple tint to the film base that I don't normally see with Acros. This may be because I didn't do my customary presoak on the strip, nor did I go through the usual HCA and wash afterwards.

If the clearing time was 5,5 mins, that means I should fix for about 10 mins, right?

10 minutes should do it with margin. If any purple tint remains after 10 minutes, an HCA soak and washing should remove it.

BTW, 20 - 30 grams of Sodium Sulfite per liter of water will do the same thing as HCA. Add 5 grams of Sodium Bisulfite (aka metaBisulfite) to the Sodium Sulfite solution and you will have a buffered HCA solution.

knutb · Oct 6, 2005

Tom Hoskinson said:
10 minutes should do it with margin. If any purple tint remains after 10 minutes, an HCA soak and washing should remove it. [\QUOTE]

Hi,
Interesting thread, as I have considered for some time to try a one-shot fix. However, both in this thread and in other discussions, there seem to be some conflicting views on dilute fixers and the resulting increase in clearing time. Let's say that I end up with a fixing time of 15 minutes. What would the potential negative effects be? Yes, I know it's not according to the book but other than that?

To determine the required amount of fixer concentrate, I have been thinking of something like this:

1) Use the capacity given in the data sheet as a starting point, and throw in a reasonable safety factor (about 2). Say that 1 litre of 1+4 dilution (ie. 200ml of concentrate) has a fixing capacity of 20 rolls of film, in which case each roll 'consumes' 10ml fixer concentrate. Bring in the safety factor, and you end up with 20ml concentrate per roll.

2) Test clearing time as usual (using the proper dilution of course).

3) Fix a test roll for 2-3 times the clearing time found in step 2.

4) Test clearing time of the used fixer. If the new clearing time is less than twice the time found in step 2, then OK. If the clearing time has more than doubled, then more concentrate is required.

The last step is of course based on the common simple test, which says to dump the fixer (when re-used) when the clearing time has doubled.

Comments?

Knut

dancqu · Oct 6, 2005

timeUnit said:
... there was a purple tint to the film base that I don't
normally see with Acros. This may be because I didn't do
my customary presoak ... nor ... the usual HCA and
wash afterwards.

Not a fair test. To know you'll need to test again; all
things being equal save for the fix mix. That includes
your H2O. Dan

timeUnit · Oct 6, 2005

I agree. But since the dilution would be too low for my economy I'm not pursuing more tests.

But I bet if I presoak for 5 mins, fix, HCA and wash I would get a nice clear neg at that dilution.

Tom Hoskinson · Oct 6, 2005

knutb said:
Tom Hoskinson said:

10 minutes should do it with margin. If any purple tint remains after 10 minutes, an HCA soak and washing should remove it. [\QUOTE]

Hi,
Interesting thread, as I have considered for some time to try a one-shot fix. However, both in this thread and in other discussions, there seem to be some conflicting views on dilute fixers and the resulting increase in clearing time. Let's say that I end up with a fixing time of 15 minutes. What would the potential negative effects be? Yes, I know it's not according to the book but other than that?

Click to expand...

No negative effects.
When the film has been fixed for a sufficient time to be completely cleared, it is fixed - especially if you added a safety factor to the clearing time.

With proper post-fix washing, your processed film should fully meet archival standards.

knutb said:

To determine the required amount of fixer concentrate, I have been thinking of something like this:

1) Use the capacity given in the data sheet as a starting point, and throw in a reasonable safety factor (about 2). Say that 1 litre of 1+4 dilution (ie. 200ml of concentrate) has a fixing capacity of 20 rolls of film, in which case each roll 'consumes' 10ml fixer concentrate. Bring in the safety factor, and you end up with 20ml concentrate per roll.

2) Test clearing time as usual (using the proper dilution of course).

3) Fix a test roll for 2-3 times the clearing time found in step 2.

4) Test clearing time of the used fixer. If the new clearing time is less than twice the time found in step 2, then OK. If the clearing time has more than doubled, then more concentrate is required.

The last step is of course based on the common simple test, which says to dump the fixer (when re-used) when the clearing time has doubled.

Comments?

Knut

Click to expand...

Way too complicated - IMHO. When the film has completely cleared, it is fixed.

Kirk Keyes · Oct 6, 2005

Tom Hoskinson said:
Way too complicated - IMHO. When the film has completely cleared, it is fixed.

Is it? Doesn't that mean that the fixer has reacted with the silver halide in the film and that it has merely complexed with the silver halide?

I seem to remember that there are some silver thiosulfate complexes that are not very soluble. More fixing time is needed to fully complex with the silver halide to fully remove the silver thiosulfate complex. Perhaps this is only an issue with papers...

The only way to really tell is to do a residual silver test of the film.

My system is to double fix the film. I use Hypam 1+4 for 3 minutes and then a second bath of 1+4 for another 3 minutes. If your motivation is to be a cheapskate (mine is), then this approach should give you the most fixing power from your fixing solutions. Takes about 6 minutes.

It also has the benefit that it will also guarantee that you have complex fixation of your film.

Double fixing is important for ensuring that your prints last a long time, so why not use that approach with your film?

Kirk - www.keyesphoto.com

Tom Hoskinson · Oct 6, 2005

Kirk Keyes said:
Is it? Doesn't that mean that the fixer has reacted with the silver halide in the film and that it has merely complexed with the silver halide?

I seem to remember that there are some silver thiosulfate complexes that are not very soluble. More fixing time is needed to fully complex with the silver halide to fully remove the silver thiosulfate complex. Perhaps this is only an issue with papers...

The only way to really tell is to do a residual silver test of the film.

My system is to double fix the film. I use Hypam 1+4 for 3 minutes and then a second bath of 1+4 for another 3 minutes. If your motivation is to be a cheapskate (mine is), then this approach should give you the most fixing power from your fixing solutions. Takes about 6 minutes.

It also has the benefit that it will also guarantee that you have complex fixation of your film.

Double fixing is important for ensuring that your prints last a long time, so why not use that approach with your film?

Kirk - www.keyesphoto.com

My objective was one shot fixing of film - primarily for convenience.

With an Ammonium Thiosufate one-shot fixer, my Kodak ST-1 residual silver tests show acceptable results (wrt test spot color change) after fixing and washing.

Residual Siver Test Reference: Grant Haist, Modern Photographic Processing, page 679-80.

I have not performed Kodak ST-1 residual silver testing with a one-shot Sodium Thiosulfate film fixer.

I use two bath (Sodium Thiosulfate) fixing for fiber prints and a Kodak ST-1 residual silver test.

A discussion of methods of testing for residual Thiosufates and Thionates in processed photographic film and papers can also be found in Haist, pages 671-8.

dancqu · Oct 9, 2005

[QUOTES=Kirk Keyes]
"Is it? Doesn't that mean that the fixer has reacted with
the silver halide in the film and that it has merely complexed
with the silver halide?"

That is not to say it is invisable.

"I seem to remember that there are some silver thiosulfate
complexes that are not very soluble. More fixing time is needed
to fully complex with ..."

And or more fixer. It would seem that the mono thiosulfate
complex is not soluable while the di and tri are soluable

"The only way to really tell is to do a residual silver
test of the film."

Do not all panchromatic emulsions when under-fixed
show a magenta stain. I know under-fixed Pan F+ does
show the stain. I've read of a few others that do also.
Kodak goes so far as to say that when the stain is
gone then the film is fixed. Dan

ilford hypam fixer as "one shot"

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