Ilford FP4+ Magenta dye on negative 4x5

Willie Jan · Apr 17, 2009

Hi,

I presoak the ilford fp4+ for 3 minutes, than develop in pyrocat HD for about 12 minutes, stop 1 minute, fix for 4 minutes. (jobo manual tank)

After that a wash for about 6 minutes with the special hose which bubbles the water in the tank.

I noticed a magenta dye left on the neg when i put the neg on a white paper.
Is the wash much to short???

And is this dye causing problems when enlarging ???

Steve Smith · Apr 17, 2009

That's the anti-halation layer which normally comes off in pre-soak. Try some more washing.

I used to get this when I processed 5x4 sheets in my Paterson Orbital processor until I read the tip about scoring the base to stop the rear of the film (Where this layer is) from sticking to the base.

If your washer allows water to run over both sides of the sheet though, I would expect it to have washed off with the sequences you mention.

Steve.

Martin Aislabie · Apr 17, 2009

Doesn't it need some more time in a bath/tray of Fixer and a second wash?

I knew someone who put small spots of glue about every 12 ~ 15mm on the inside of his tank to hold the back of the film away from the tank

Martin

Willie Jan · Apr 17, 2009

Martin Aislabie said:
Doesn't it need some more time in a bath/tray of Fixer and a second wash?

I knew someone who put small spots of glue about every 12 ~ 15mm on the inside of his tank to hold the back of the film away from the tank

Martin

i use a jobo 2509 tank with a reel. i do not have this problem with a different film type (fuji acros)

Could this be a fix (to short) problem or is it a wash problem.

Martin Aislabie · Apr 17, 2009

If you have used the 2509 Reel and fixed for 4 mins (I do mine for 5 in fix with less than half the stated used life - but thats probably way to long) its probably enough

I was my films for longer than the 6 mins - usualy 15 to 25 mins - depending upon water temp

The most garanteed way of overcoming the problem will be to reload the negs into the reel and fix for another 4 mins and wash for say another 10 mins with the cascade washer

If you are curious as to what exactly the problem is for next time - just try washing first to see if that overcomes the problem and if its no good, you can re-fix and then re-wash.

My FP4 5x4 negs look just like 35mm & 120 in colour.

Good luck

Martin

Willie Jan · Apr 17, 2009

this morning i took the neg (presoak 2 minutes) and fixed it for another 2 minutes to be sure and after that washed for 10 minutes at a temp of around 25 degrees celcius.

Looks like the dye is gone now.

Could this dye have any impact on my print????

Martin Aislabie · Apr 17, 2009

Don't know

Have you tried reading through the Sticky Thread at the top of this section about TMax Pink Dye Cast - (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Good luck

Martin

Willie Jan · Apr 19, 2009

Martin Aislabie said:
Don't know

Have you tried reading through the Sticky Thread at the top of this section about TMax Pink Dye Cast - (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Good luck

Martin

Hi,
yes I saw that one. I have to do some tests to be sure it's only the washing.

Shawn Dougherty · Apr 19, 2009

I've been developing 4x5 fp4+ quite a bit lately. 2-3 minute presoak, develop in Rodinal 18 minutes, fix for 6 minutes, wash for 5 minutes, agitate in a tray of Zonal Pro Archival Rinse for 2 minutes, second wash for 10-15 mintues, 30 seconds in photoflow and hang. I get clear negs without any sign of the AH layer. Hope this helps. Shawn

Willie Jan · Apr 20, 2009

I did a test with one of the negs and put it again in the wash tank at 25 degrees for 10 minutes, afterwards i still see a light reddish stain which was not there when i did a 2nd fix for 2 minutes. So mabye i will have to fix 6 minutes too, in stead of 4. and a longer wash.

txs.

Steve Smith · Apr 20, 2009

You seem to be going to a lot of effort to remove the anti-halation layer which should come off easily.

I have not used FP4+ in 5x4 but when I use it in 120, all of the dye comes out in the pre-wash. I can prove that by doing a second pre-wash from which the water comes out fairly clear.

It sounds like the problem is in getting enough flow of water around the back of the sheet where this layer is.

I don't think re-fixing is needed as the flow around the emulsion side is fine. Have you tried washing the dye off under a running tap or in a tray rather than in the tank?

Steve.

Willie Jan · Apr 20, 2009

I havent got this problem with fuji acros. Only with fp4+.

Maybe i must offer 1 sheet to do the whole process in a open tray, so i can see what happens.

txs.

BobNewYork · Apr 20, 2009

I've read in several places that the magenta cast doesn't affect printing. However, I can't shake the feeling that, when using VC paper, that magenta cast would prompt an increase in effective printing contrast. That said, I base my fixing times on three times the clearing time for the maximum number of films I use a 1.5 liter batch for - 20 rolls - which is a standard 9 minute fix for everything.

Bob H

Willie Jan · Apr 21, 2009

I always use a max of 8 rolls on 1 liter (1+4). So this fix should not be exhausted.

bwakel · Apr 21, 2009

I've always had a problem with the magenta AH dye remaining on all my Ilford films in all sizes. However, I recently started using Prescysol EF as a developer and in the instructions it suggests that if you have this problem then leave the film to stand in water for 3x5 minutes between the stop and the fix. After fixing wash as usual. I did this (actually I did 3x4 minutes because I had time pressures) and it worked a treat! Previously the dye was visible on my films despite a 5 minute pre-soak. It might be to do with our hard water, I'm not sure, but the 3x5 minute soak after the stop works for me. Might be worth a try.

Barry

Steve Smith · Apr 21, 2009

bwakel said:
It might be to do with our hard water, I'm not sure, but the 3x5 minute soak after the stop works for me. Might be worth a try.

It could be the water quality.

I don't think it's anything to do with the fix as the AH layer is on the other side of the film, not the emulsion side.

Steve.

Shawn Dougherty · Apr 21, 2009

My presoak is in distilled water....

Willie Jan · Apr 22, 2009

Where i live the water is used for bottling (spa blue). So the water quality is perfect.

Ilford does not speak about this in their brochures...
I will try to contact them what they say about it.

Shawn Dougherty · Apr 22, 2009

I just developed more FP4+ last night and the water in my presoak was blue... I wonder if you have old film? All the best. Shawn

Shawn Dougherty · Apr 22, 2009

I suppose it could be green, looked blue to me, BUT, I was in the DARKroom. =)

Steve Smith · Apr 22, 2009

silveror0 said:
Their response:

"You are correct. The change you saw in the color of the pre-rinse bath was a result of the antihalation layer in the backcoat of the film. This effect is normal. Often when a pre-bath is not used or the processing time is short, this dye remains in the image.

When I don't use a pre soak, the dye comes out with the developer.

Steve.

Ilford FP4+ Magenta dye on negative 4x5

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