Ilford FP4+ in Willi Beutler's...how long?

BradS · May 20, 2006

Ok, I just did a sheet of FP4 in a fresh mix of Willi Beutler's dev and got...precisely, NOTHING! I tried ten minutes at 22 degrees C. The result is clear film.

I tried dipping a spare film end in the mixed developer and got no apparent blackening after nearly two minutes...?

BradS · May 21, 2006

Hmmm, further testing indicates that I fumbled the mix. Chemistrynever was my stong point! I remember the Chem labs in college...every week, somebody in my group would break all the glasware and we'd end up dry labbing it. Thank G-d for plain M&Ms!

Brad.

Tom Hoskinson · May 21, 2006

BradS said:
Hmmm, further testing indicates that I fumbled the mix. Chemistrynever was my stong point! I remember the Chem labs in college...every week, somebody in my group would break all the glasware and we'd end up dry labbing it. Thank G-d for plain M&Ms!

Brad.

Brad, are you mixing the Beutler recipe posted by Ole in the APUG Chemical recipes section?

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

The Beutler A solution all by itself should blacken (or at least turn dark gray) a piece of exposed film.

Beutler A solution:

0. (forget the Calgon - it's just a water softener)
1. Measure out 10 grams of Metol

2. Measure out 50 grams Sodium Sulfite (anhydrous)

3. Put 750 ml of water at 40 deg. C in a mixing container.

4. Dissolve a pinch of the Sodium Sulfite first, then stir in the Metol

5. After all the Metol is dissolved, stir in the remaining Sodium Sulfite.

6. Add water to make a total solution volume of 1 liter.

You are finished mixing the A solution.

The Beutler C solution is pretty hard to mess up:

0. (forget the Calgon - it's just a water softener)

1. Put 750ml of water at 40 deg. C in a mixing container.

2. Measure out 100 grams Sodium Carbonate (anhydrous)

3. Stir the Sodium Carbonate into the water.

4. Add water to make a total solution volume of 1 liter.

You are finished mixing the C solution.

The Beutler D solution is easy:

1. Put 750ml of water at 40 deg. C in a mixing container.

2. Measure out 10 grams of Potassium Bromide

3. Stir the Potassium Bromide into the water.

4. Add water to make a total solution volume of 1 liter.

You are finished mixing the D solution.

BradS · May 21, 2006

Hi Tom,

Thanks for the detailed reply. Except for the Potasium Bromide, I thought I followed the directions you posted above almost to the letter. I used only Part A and the part with the Carbonate. Anyway, I suspect that I may have left the Metol out of part A...that's the only thing I can think of. I ended up souping sheet #2 in the D-23 that I mixed up earlier in the week (my first home brewed dev!). That worked fine.

I shoot mainly FP-4 and TXP but, have some Efke R 100 that I'd like to try in the Beutler's so, will try again.

Thank you again Tom. Oh, and does ten minutes sound about right for FP-4 in Beutlers?

Tom Hoskinson · May 21, 2006

BradS said:
Hi Tom,

Thanks for the detailed reply. Except for the Potasium Bromide, I thought I followed the directions you posted above almost to the letter. I used only Part A and the part with the Carbonate. Anyway, I suspect that I may have left the Metol out of part A...that's the only thing I can think of. I ended up souping sheet #2 in the D-23 that I mixed up earlier in the week (my first home brewed dev!). That worked fine.

I shoot mainly FP-4 and TXP but, have some Efke R 100 that I'd like to try in the Beutler's so, will try again.

Thank you again Tom. Oh, and does ten minutes sound about right for FP-4 in Beutlers?

You're welcome, Brad. BTW, no Metol in Part A = no development.

Ten minutes (plus or minus 2 minutes) at 70F with 5 seconds of initial agitation and about 15 seconds of agitation per minute should get you started.

anyhuus · Jun 10, 2006

EI and dev.time test

I have for some time been trying the FP4/Beutler combination, and like the thread-starter I have wondered about the dev.time. I see that 9-10 minutes have been recommended several places, and that's where I started aswell (with an EI of 100 ASA). But I got terrible negs (way too overexposed and blocked highlights) In addition, I also read somewhere that the Beutler is supposed to be a speed-enhancing developer, but I could not find any data on this for the FP4. This led me to conduct the tests described by Lambrecht and Woodhouse in their book "Way Beyond Monochrome" and I have some results that might be of interest.

dev.time average relative log exp
(minutes) gamma speedpoint
6 0,51 0,41
7 0,59 0,26
9 0,67 0,15

I know this is perhaps too few samples, but it gives an indication. Drawing the curves base on these data, as described in the aforementioned book led to this result:

N-1: 6 minutes EI = just above 100 ASA
N: 6 min 50 sec. EI = 150 ASA
N+1: 9 minutes EI = 200 ASA (!)

Are these consistent with the experience of other FP4/Beutler-fans?

anyhuus · Jun 10, 2006

I see that the table I tried to make came out a bit garbled. I try a different approach:

Dev. time (minutes): 6
Average gamma: 0,51
Rel. log exp (speedpoint): 0,41

Dev. time (minutes): 7
Average gamma: 0,59
Rel. log exp (speedpoint): 0,26

Dev. time (minutes): 9
Average gamma: 0,67
Rel. log exp (speedpoint): 0,15

I should add that the film was 35mm, exposed at 100 ASA, and that the target spedpoint is at rel. log exp. 0.45.

Ole · Jun 10, 2006

Part of the problem is the term "Beutler's". What I published in the articles is Willi Beutler's Standard Developers for Plates and Papers, mixed in varying proportions with verying amounts of water depending on use, film type, exposure, etcetera.

Most references to "Beutler's" means one specific dilution/combination of these parts, which is supposed to be more or less the same as Neofin Blau.

"Beutler's Neofin-like Developer" can easily be mixed from the basic solutions. But so can a lot of other developers!

8 minutes is just about my standard developing time for ISO 100-ish films in Neofin/BND. It tends to give a little extra speed, a little extra contrast, and be a lot easier (IMO) to get a great print from on G2 paper. I like lots of local contrast, and this gives it without overdeveloping the highlights beyond printability.

anyhuus · Jun 10, 2006

Ole said:
Part of the problem is the term "Beutler's". What I published in the articles is Willi Beutler's Standard Developers for Plates and Papers, mixed in varying proportions with verying amounts of water depending on use, film type, exposure, etcetera.

Most references to "Beutler's" means one specific dilution/combination of these parts, which is supposed to be more or less the same as Neofin Blau.

"Beutler's Neofin-like Developer" can easily be mixed from the basic solutions. But so can a lot of other developers!

8 minutes is just about my standard developing time for ISO 100-ish films in Neofin/BND. It tends to give a little extra speed, a little extra contrast, and be a lot easier (IMO) to get a great print from on G2 paper. I like lots of local contrast, and this gives it without overdeveloping the highlights beyond printability.

Good point Ole,

The "scientific" approach requires me to be preices about the formula, of course. I used the Beutler's as described in your article. Which is the same as all other recipies I have seen around for Beutler's. However, I skip the potassium bromide solutiuon (mostly because it wasn't mentioned the first place I read the formula: Barry Thornton's Elements). How significant to dev. time and EI is the adding of potassium bromide?

I dev @ 20 centigrades, agitate continuosly for the first minute, thereafter 3 inversions (approx 10 sec) each minute.

Ole · Jun 11, 2006

anyhuus said:
... How significant to dev. time and EI is the adding of potassium bromide?...

Not very much. It's primary function is to reduce fog. A well-tuned developer mixed should have minimum fog withoug losing shadow detail (=sensitivity), but IMO it's better to have some fog than to risk losing shadow detail. "Beutler's" should give low fog levels anyway.

Your agitation pattern is the same as I use, when I use one at all.

anyhuus · Jun 11, 2006

EI and dev.time test

I have for some time been trying the FP4/Beutler combination, and like the thread-starter I have wondered about the dev.time. I see that 9-10 minutes have been recommended several places, and that's where I started aswell (with an EI of 100 ASA). But I got terrible negs (way too overexposed and blocked highlights) In addition, I also read somewhere that the Beutler is supposed to be a speed-enhancing developer, but I could not find any data on this for the FP4. This led me to conduct the tests described by Lambrecht and Woodhouse in their book "Way Beyond Monochrome" and I have some results that might be of interest.

dev.time average relative log exp
(minutes) gamma speedpoint
6 0,51 0,41
7 0,59 0,26
9 0,67 0,15

I know this is perhaps too few samples, but it gives an indication. Drawing the curves base on these data, as described in the aforementioned book led to this result:

N-1: 6 minutes EI = just above 100 ASA
N: 6 min 50 sec. EI = 150 ASA
N+1: 9 minutes EI = 200 ASA (!)

Are these consistent with the experience of other FP4/Beutler-fans?

anyhuus · Jun 12, 2006

I see that somehow my last posting has appeared twice for whatever technical reason. Please ignore it, and forgive me, Ole: I hope you do not think I ignored your reply by repeating my question that you'd already answered.

dancqu · Jun 12, 2006

[QUOTES=Ole]
"Most references to "Beutler's" means one specific
dilution/combination of these parts, which is supposed
to be more or less the same as Neofin Blau."

The "Leica-dose" you mention is one specific
combination and is, for one liter, "Beutler's".

"Beutler's Neofin-like Developer" can easily
be mixed from the basic solutions. But so can
a lot of other developers!"

From the basic solutions you've listed the 1:5
ratio of metol to sulfite is set. Variations will be
by altering ratios of the C and D stocks.

There are a lot of carbonated metol sulfite
developers. At least a few make good film and
paper developers. Ansco 120 and Beer's A, both
the same developer, with their 1:3:3 ratios of
metol, sulfite, carbonate, do well with paper
and film. May give that 1:3:3 mix a second
look myself. My brew; 1, 3, and 3 grams
split to three portions. Dan

"8 minutes is just about my standard developing
time for ISO 100-ish films in Neofin/BND. It tends
to give a little extra speed, a little extra contrast,
and be a lot easier (IMO) to get a great print from
on G2 paper. I like lots of local contrast, and this
gives it without overdeveloping the highlights
beyond printability."

Gerald Koch · Jun 13, 2006

All the formulas for a two solution Beutler developer of which I am familiar call for 50g/l of anhydrous sodium carbonate. This is for a dilution of 1+1+8. The carbonate solution mentioned above as Solution C seems to be twice as concentrated.

The present incarnation of Neofin Blue has the following composition from the MSDS.

A:
Sodium sulfite ....................................... 2.2%
Metol .................................................. 0.9%
Phenidone ............................................ 0.4%

B:
Potassium carbonate .............................. 5-10%

dancqu · Jun 14, 2006

[QUOTES=Gerald Koch]
"All the formulas for a two solution Beutler developer
of which I am familiar call for 50g/l of anhydrous sodium
carbonate. This is for a dilution of 1+1+8. The carbonate
solution mentioned above as Solution C seems to be
twice as concentrated."

Ole posted A, , C, D formulas for compounding with
varying proportions a number of developers. The "Beutler"
blend, Leica-dose, uses half, volumetrically, the amount of C.

The B solution is of hydroquinone as are Beer's B and
Adams split Ansco 130 B solutions. Of course the later
two are contrast control Print developers. Likely contrast
control was also Beutler's intent. As I've suggested Beer's,
more likely Beutler's, might be used for N + - development at
constant times by varying the working strength composition
of the developer. No push, no pull. Dan

"The present incarnation of Neofin Blue has the following
composition from the MSDS.

A:
Sodium sulfite ....................................... 2.2%
Metol .................................................. 0.9%
Phenidone ............................................ 0.4%

B:
Potassium carbonate .............................. 5-10%"

Gerald Koch · Jun 14, 2006

dancqu said:
Ole posted A, C, D formulas for compounding with
varying proportions a number of developers. The "Beutler"
blend, Leica-dose, uses half, volumetrically, the amount of C.

Thanks, what one usually sees is this "Leica-dose" version.
Jerry

BradS · Jun 15, 2006

anyhuus said:
I have for some time been trying the FP4/Beutler combination, and like the thread-starter I have wondered about the dev.time. I see that 9-10 minutes have been recommended several places, and that's where I started aswell (with an EI of 100 ASA). But I got terrible negs (way too overexposed and blocked highlights) In addition, I also read somewhere that the Beutler is supposed to be a speed-enhancing developer, but I could not find any data on this for the FP4. This led me to conduct the tests described by Lambrecht and Woodhouse in their book "Way Beyond Monochrome" and I have some results that might be of interest.

dev.time average relative log exp
(minutes) gamma speedpoint
6 0,51 0,41
7 0,59 0,26
9 0,67 0,15

I know this is perhaps too few samples, but it gives an indication. Drawing the curves base on these data, as described in the aforementioned book led to this result:

N-1: 6 minutes EI = just above 100 ASA
N: 6 min 50 sec. EI = 150 ASA
N+1: 9 minutes EI = 200 ASA (!)

Are these consistent with the experience of other FP4/Beutler-fans?

This is good information. Thank you for sharing. I've not got round to mixing up another batch of Beutler's but, will again soon. I've been playing with D-23 followed by a 1.5% Borax afterbath. Wish I could produce a data set as useful as yours. Thanks again!

dancqu · Jun 15, 2006

BradS said:
I've not got round to mixing up another batch of
Beutler's but, will again soon. I've been playing with
D-23 followed by a 1.5% Borax afterbath.

Likely your D-23 uses the standard 7.5 grams metol
100 grams sodium sulfite. I've worked with a slightly
modified 8 - 80 gram mix. The 1:10 ratio is the same
as with FX-1, a Beutler similar developer. If one were
to add 48 grams of carbonate to 8-80-D23 the
result would be a liter of FX-1 concentrate.

For myself I'd compound 1 & 10 grams of metol &
sulfite for a D-23 type. Carbonate could be added
latter if I wished an FX-1/Beutler type. Dan

Ilford FP4+ in Willi Beutler's...how long?

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Ilford FP4+ in Willi Beutler's...how long?

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