Ilford FB MultiGrade CRACKING!!

Hi,

I am new to the forum but this seems to be one of the most knowledge-based forums on the web. I am having a delimma and would GREATLY appreciate feedback. I am currently using Ilford FB IV Multigrade (Neutral & WarmTone) and the gelatin layer seems to crack very easy when the paper is folded - almost like the gelatin is a layer of ceramic on the surface, very brittle. I had used Ilford Fixer but last night used Kodak Rapid Fix WITHOUT HARDENER - Same results.

Do I need another paper? My chemistry is always fresh, 72 degrees, Humidity 30%, Room Temp. 70-74. Could it be because I am using Glossy? Even my older hand-applied prints do not do this. I realize some might tell me not to crease the print but 1. I am trying to get certain effects and 2. This reveals some sort of problem that I cannot find a solution to.

PLEASE HELP if you can or have any suggestions.

Thank you,

Cody Thomas

Hi, it is normal for the surface of Ilford fiber paper to crack when folded. Glossy and semi-matte both. The RC pearl type paper does not crack like that when folded, but is kind of stiff, being plastic coated.

Jon

FB papers aren't designed for folding

But if you have to try damping the surface first, or steam it over a kettle to add some moisture to the surface. The Surface on all the FB papers I've used in the last 20 years will crack under certain conditions., your exceeding those conditions.

Ian

You can fold it without cracking, I use it for Xmas cards. Score the emulsion lightly with an Exacto knife along the fold line and then fold.

It's not a new problem, gelatin coated papers cracked when folded over 50 years ago and still do. Nicholas has your answer to the problem.

More INQUIRY

Hi all again,

Thank you for the response but there are numerous examples of photographs that have been manipulated, scored, creased, etc. that don't reveal such "cracking" of the gelatin surface. One example would be older photos that many people have folded etc. and another example would be the work of Masao Yamamoto.

If any of you are aware of the work of Masao Yamamoto please reply. It simply appears that the emulsion is "sitting up" on top of the paper even more so than with RC prints. The fiber papers should have less of this, not more. Is there another paper that anybody would recommend or something I have not caught within the chemistry?

Cody Thomas

It will take experimentation, as with any alternative technique. I highly doubt that Mr. Yamamoto tried one thing and had it end up perfectly.

Try folding it before it is completely dry. Try folding it wet. Try folding it ever so slowly, back and forth, bit by bit. Try other papers. Try all sorts of things.

For easier folding try using single weight paper. There were even lighter weight papers available at one time, one made by Kentmere felt almost like regular copier paper.

You can also try creasing the paper while it is still wet.

Kodak made a paper at one time that was designed to be folded. If I recall, it had military applications. There was a thread mentioning this a few days back. Can't remember where though.

CLARIFICATION from Thread Originator

I need to clarify that while I would "like" to have the creative ability to fold/manipulate the paper at different stages, this is not the PRIMARY matter at hand. I have been a photographer, mainly in alt processes such as Platinum, for many years but have never seen such an extreme "brittleness" of a paper - even curly the paper in an extreme can cause "crack marks".

Let me put it this way, the paper literally makes an "audible crack" noise when folded! I thought this was due to too much Hardener but now am lost as I am using no Hardener.

Could it simply be Ilford paper? With the "Digital Age" at hand I selected Ilford since it seems to be staying in the "Analog Game", however, maybe there are other paper companies (Oriental, Bergger, Foma, etc.) that have papers that have the gelatin layer "more imbedded" within the paper fibers. Maybe it needs to NOT be double-weight. Whatever the reason this paper really has no "flex".

I am certainly open to the fact that maybe it is something I am doing. All I know is that there HAS to be another alternative, another paper, different chemistry, etc.

Please respond,

Cody Thomas

Have you tried using a bone tool which is used for scoring papers for folding? Example at;
http://store.falkiners.com/store/category/39/334/Bone-&-Horn-Folders/

If you score the back of MG it still cracks in a very slight wavy pattern but if you score the emulsion and then fold back, the crack is then at least a very straight thin line only on the actual edge.

CtEditions said:

I am certainly open to the fact that maybe it is something I am doing. All I know is that there HAS to be another alternative, another paper, different chemistry, etc.

Click to expand...

That's not immediatly clear from your posts. If I start a thread entitled "Forte paper BURNING!" comprising the post:

When I put a cigarette lighter under Forte paper it burns! It may be something I'm doing wrong, but please can someone tell my why Forte paper burns please and what I do to stop it

Click to expand...

It is perhaps not unreasonable of me to expect replies along the lines of "well don't set light to it then."


A better thread, and a better question, to get the answer you're looking for would be I think "Which papers are best for folding without cracking the emulsion." You've already worked out Ilford isn't the best of 'em, now might be the time to try some others.

CtEditions said:

Could it simply be Ilford paper? With the "Digital Age" at hand I selected Ilford since it seems to be staying in the "Analog Game", however, maybe there are other paper companies (Oriental, Bergger, Foma, etc.) that have papers that have the gelatin layer "more imbedded" within the paper fibers. Maybe it needs to NOT be double-weight. Whatever the reason this paper really has no "flex".
Cody Thomas

Click to expand...

You'd find that all Fibre based papers are pretty much the same when it comes to cracking, so changing brand is going to be poinless. There's probably only one company making the baryta paper base now for the European manufacturers.

There was an exception Kentmere Art where the emulsion was coated direct onto a paper base, but this went out of production because the paper base was discontinued. Foma made a similar product using the same paper base, so that disappeared as well, however more recently they have introduced Fomatone Nature 532 ll. This might be more suited to your project.

Ian

Have you tried folding it when it is wet? I have crinkled, folded, and even wadded up fiber paper without getting cracks, but only when it was wet.

patrickjames said:

Have you tried folding it when it is wet? I have crinkled, folded, and even wadded up fiber paper without getting cracks, but only when it was wet.

Click to expand...

Fred Picker used to have a stamp saying 'TRY IT' he whacked down on 90% of the letters he received. In the spirit of Fred I thought I'd have a go.

Boil up a bit of water, then with a reasonably fine brush (I used a no. 2) run a line of this hot water down the line of the fold, on the emulsion side. Keep the line of moisture as narrow as possible. Repeat a few times. Bend on the line of the fold, initially slightly emulsion in, then reverse the folding to emulsion out. Increase the pressure, and finally roll the fold down with something suitable, I used a roll of tape. Gives a perfect fold, no cracking. The paper I used was Ilford FB Warmtone glossy.