Ilford Direct Positive - Pulling my Hair Out

Christine Lee Smith · May 18, 2022

I'm getting ready to chuck the pack in the trash ... I'm struggling to get an image with the Ilford 4x5 Direct Positive paper. I'm shooting it in my 4x5 camera.

Last night, using my light meter I got an image (over exposed, but there was something there). Today, I went back out at an earlier time of day and shot in the shade. My meter was telling me ISO 3, f/11, at 1/2 second. But my thought was with all black prints coming out, to reduce the light so I compensated by shooting at ISO 3, 1/125 and f/32

I also adjusted the development times according to the Ilford spec sheet (1:30 development, 30 second stop, 1:30 fix). Images today are all black. I wasn't expecting perfect exposures, but I was expecting an image of some kind.

I'm tired of wasting sheets - any advice? I'm at the point of frustration where I'm not longer thinking critically with this product any longer.

The only new thought I have is possibly the temp of the developer? I'm in an A/C room that's set to 75, so even with the heat outside I didn't think that could be the issue?

Thanks!

NB23 · May 18, 2022

All black you mean underexposure?

I’ve thrown my papers in the trash, didnt have the time to fiddle.

Basically, what I read, is that the developer has to be much stronger. If dektol, use stock. If ilford multigrade, use 1:3 or so.

Overexpose, use iso 1.

NB23 · May 18, 2022

Iso 3, 1/125, f32.... that sounds more like iso 3200.

Donald Qualls · May 18, 2022

Harman Direct Positive is like shooting slides. If too dark, give more light, not less.

HDP is also well known for needing contrast control on natural lighting -- Joe van Cleeve, for instance, preflashes his, which both increases speed slightly and reins in contrast about half a grade.

Like any prints, you need to develop for a consistent time -- for Dektol (which is what I've used for printing for fifty years) you'd usually develop two minutes at 1+2 dilution; this is close to developing to completion, but not quite all the way there.

The only temperature that matters is that of the developer, and 75 F is quite a reasonable figure for print development.

bernard_L · May 18, 2022

Christine Lee Smith said:
My meter was telling me ISO 3, f/11, at 1/2 second. But my thought was with all black prints coming out, to reduce the light so I compensated by shooting at ISO 3, 1/125 and f/32

Quite a compensation!!
1/2s --> 1/125s = minus 5 stops
f:11 --> f:32 = minus 3 stops
Total minus 8 stops !!!!
All that with a medium that is known for high contrast. No wonder your images resulted total black.
Maybe you need to deviate from what your meter tells you for ISO 3, but go in steps of one stop. Then maybe backup by 1/2 stop...

Christine Lee Smith · May 18, 2022

Donald Qualls said:
Harman Direct Positive is like shooting slides. If too dark, give more light, not less.

Thanks so much for your reply, Donald. I think this is totally what is going on. My dyslexia has been getting in my way. I felt it but couldn't put my finger on it. Thank you for explaining!

mshchem · May 18, 2022

Donald Qualls said:
Harman Direct Positive is like shooting slides. If too dark, give more light, not less.

HDP is also well known for needing contrast control on natural lighting -- Joe van Cleeve, for instance, preflashes his, which both increases speed slightly and reins in contrast about half a grade.

Like any prints, you need to develop for a consistent time -- for Dektol (which is what I've used for printing for fifty years) you'd usually develop two minutes at 1+2 dilution; this is close to developing to completion, but not quite all the way there.

The only temperature that matters is that of the developer, and 75 F is quite a reasonable figure for print development.

+1 like slides. I don't have much interest in this stuff. Looks like you need to preflash. I'd be more interested in trying a paper negative and trying reflex printing. Avoids the astronomical cost of large format film. Achieves a interesting look.
HDP is way high contrast.

cramej · May 18, 2022

I've had good results at ISO 3. Didn't preflash so contrast was high, but not outrageous. I tested some with a preflash but I had a limited quantity of paper to test with so I didn't experiment much. Once I got exposure figured out, I made a round of postcards for the exchange and had 20 or 25 very consistent exposures. Developed in normal Dektol.

If it's dark, it needs more exposure, not less. It took me 5 or 6 sheets to figure that out.

Nicholas Lindan · May 18, 2022

I occasionally use a reversal process for producing large negatives for alt process - mostly cyanotype, salted and Van Dyke prints.

I routinely drive myself mad trying to find the right exposure - "Damn it! It's way too dark. More exposure..." After a few more failed attempts I suddenly have my Homer Simpson moment "D'oh!"

BTW, reversal processing lithographic film produces a nice contrasty but continuous tone negative for alt work.

Christine Lee Smith · May 19, 2022

Nicholas Lindan said:
I routinely drive myself mad trying to find the right exposure - "Damn it! It's way too dark. More exposure..." After a few more failed attempts I suddenly have my Homer Simpson moment "D'oh!"

Well, glad to know I'm not the only one! Thanks for sharing Nicholas!

Christine Lee Smith · May 19, 2022

cramej said:
I've had good results at ISO 3. Didn't preflash so contrast was high, but not outrageous. I tested some with a preflash but I had a limited quantity of paper to test with so I didn't experiment much. Once I got exposure figured out, I made a round of postcards for the exchange and had 20 or 25 very consistent exposures. Developed in normal Dektol.

If it's dark, it needs more exposure, not less. It took me 5 or 6 sheets to figure that out.

You're exactly right! And it worked. Thank you!

Sirius Glass · May 19, 2022

Christine Lee Smith said:
I'm getting ready to chuck the pack in the trash ... I'm struggling to get an image with the Ilford 4x5 Direct Positive paper. I'm shooting it in my 4x5 camera.

Last night, using my light meter I got an image (over exposed, but there was something there). Today, I went back out at an earlier time of day and shot in the shade. My meter was telling me ISO 3, f/11, at 1/2 second. But my thought was with all black prints coming out, to reduce the light so I compensated by shooting at ISO 3, 1/125 and f/32

I also adjusted the development times according to the Ilford spec sheet (1:30 development, 30 second stop, 1:30 fix). Images today are all black. I wasn't expecting perfect exposures, but I was expecting an image of some kind.

I'm tired of wasting sheets - any advice? I'm at the point of frustration where I'm not longer thinking critically with this product any longer.

The only new thought I have is possibly the temp of the developer? I'm in an A/C room that's set to 75, so even with the heat outside I didn't think that could be the issue?

Thanks!

Baldness is not a great look for men nor women, so please try exposing the paper longer and stop pulling your hair!

Donald Qualls · May 20, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
Baldness is not a great look for men nor women, so please try exposing the paper longer and stop pulling your hair!

I resemble that remark!

Glad to hear the problem is solved. We welcome image posts...

Sirius Glass · May 20, 2022

Donald Qualls said:
I resemble that remark!

Glad to hear the problem is solved. We welcome image posts...

I never pulled my hair and it still falls out.

250swb · May 20, 2022

There is also reciprocity failure with any photographic emulsion, not just film, so yes, expose it more.

Christine Lee Smith · May 20, 2022

Donald Qualls said:
Glad to hear the problem is solved. We welcome image posts...

Here you go! These were the first two that I felt like I finally was understanding what everyone had shared ... still refining and improving. But yea! No blank black rectangles! Thanks again for everyone's help.

Donald Qualls · May 22, 2022

That's a good start! And an example of the high contrast of that material.

Preflash would help fill in the details in the shadow areas (which is how it both boost effective speed and reduces contrast a little), but selecting a subject with lower brightness ratio (or one where you can control the light for that purpose) would do about as well. The rule for shooting positives is "meter for the highlights" -- and then you have to hope the shadows cooperate.

Ilford Direct Positive - Pulling my Hair Out

Christine Lee Smith

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