Ilford Delta 100 scratches on the base (120 format)

Joel Obrecht · Apr 10, 2018

Dear all,

For one year now I'm regularly developing film, and I recently switched to medium format with a Bronica GS1.

I used several films but recently Delta 100, processed in Acurol. The film is carefully processed using recommended times in stainless steel spires and cuves.

On most of my negatives, on the back side, there are multiple very fine, parallel scratches that are very near one of the other, on several frames sometimes even on the entire roll. This is really strange, because there is the backing paper which protects the film from the pressure plate, and the paper of course looks fine on both white and black sides, no scratches.

This doesn't happen with other ilford 120 film I used that aren't coated on the base side.

I'm really wondering what could cause this?

I still have some delta 100 to shoot but now I'm afraid to loose precious work, I think I might be better off buying film that is not coated on the back.

Thanks to help me correcting my mistake if I made any!

Joël

Ian Grant · Apr 10, 2018

Most 120 films have a base coating, for anti curl, It's most likely a camera/dirt issue.

Delta 100 is my main 120 film and I've never had a problem with any of my MF cameras.

Ian.

AgX · Apr 10, 2018

Ian Grant said:
Most 120 films have a base coating, for anti curl, It's most likely a camera/dirt issue.

How could a camera produce a scratch on the backside of type 120 film. Let alone over the full lenght?

mnemosyne · Apr 13, 2018

I faintly remember having read about similar problems with Ilford film here on APUG/Photrio before, just not if it was in the context of sheet film or 120. A forum search might help.

If you find that the scratches compromise the image quality (will show up in final scan or wet print), stop using the film and send samples and any remaining unused film to Harman for evaluation and replacement.
Even if you decide that the problem has no impact on the final picture and you will use the remaining film, it would be good to let Harman know that this problem exists, including the batch number affected.

mnemosyne · Apr 13, 2018

120 size HP5+ scratches on base side:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/scratches-on-negatives.113141/
Not sure if related to your case
IIRC, there were more similar threads in the past

mnemosyne · Apr 13, 2018

Similar thread, also Ilford film both 120 and sheet film here:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/random-horizontal-scratches-lines-on-negative.114804/
the scratches resemble very much those in the other thread I linked but not sure how this relates to your case. It would be helpful if you could try to post a picture of the scratches here.

Joel Obrecht · May 13, 2018

Hello all, sorry for the late answer, I was very busy scanning my long overdue negs

So here are some pictures on my streams that can show what's going on :
I have a print of that one where it shows badly .. I even used nose grease, that somehow hid the small scratches buy the biggests, it dindn't... When I get my scanner out, I'll post it.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/quatrecouleurs/42036749382/in/datetaken/

GLS · May 13, 2018

Just to double check: are you using a squeegee on the film before drying? Any bits of dirt/grit trapped in the squeegee wipers could cause this.

Sirius Glass · May 13, 2018

Welcome to ~~APUG~~ Photrio

Parallel scratches the length of 120 film comes from dirt on the rollers or on the film transport path.

Joel Obrecht · May 13, 2018

Thanks both for your answers,
- I don't use any squeegee, I put the negs on stainless steel reels, let them on those reels through the whole process, let them dry hanging straight overnight, and then when I get back to them in the morning to cut them I see scratches... Only on the back, that is !
- How can the scratches be on the back anyway ? There's no trace of nothing on the backing paper !

- I should make some tests: See the negs just before the camera, just before development to try to isolate the cause... But before I'll wait for the next batch to be developed, maybe, it will be different.

I'm currently at a loss for words.

Thanks anyways for the help !

mfagan · May 13, 2018

As you have more film to shoot, and possibly it’s of the same batch, perhaps sacrifice a roll by opening it up and immediately examine the back for scratches — without loading it into a camera or processing it?

mfagan · May 13, 2018

Additionally to the above—if no scratches, then process the film as you have been doing to see if there are scratches? Than might narrow the problem.

Lachlan Young · May 13, 2018

Those look like mechanical damage scratches in your scan of the image, whether that is from the camera or your handling of the film at the processing stage. How do you load the reels? I can see a number of ways when loading stainless reels that the relatively sharp edges of the film could be dragged across the rest of the film causing scratches.

I also note that on your Instagram post you say it happened on both Delta 100 & 400 - this would tend to indicate it's not the film that's the problem, but probably a handling issue either in camera from improper loading or something mechanically 'off' internally.

Joel Obrecht · Jun 15, 2018

Lachlan Young said:
I also note that on your Instagram post you say it happened on both Delta 100 & 400 - this would tend to indicate it's not the film that's the problem, but probably a handling issue either in camera from improper loading or something mechanically 'off' internally.

Thank you! It most definitely is. Today, I sacrificed a roll of delta100, and saw that its back was flawless all along the film.

I'm more on the side of a kind of drying mark (I'm currently soaking one of the "scratched films" in distilled water to see). Or it could be some reaction to chemicals (Either Rodinal or Spur Acurol were making those marks). But I'll check all the steps.

Mechanically, the film goes along the palm of my hand when I load the reel. But could the palm of my hand be so scratchy???

jeffreyg · Jun 15, 2018

I have used and still use Delta 400 and 100 120 for many years with no scratches. You should be able to load the film on a ss reel by only touching the edges of the film to create a slight curve and not have the film touch anything. As mentioned sacrifice a roll and cut a piece of film before processing, process the rest without running it through the camera. If no scratches but continuing scratches with the camera it is most likely the camera. You might also try a different camera back if you have one. A few drops of Photoflo in distilled water dunk after washing before drying might also be worthwhile.

http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/

AgX · Jun 16, 2018

Lachlan Young said:
Those look like mechanical damage scratches in your scan of the image, whether that is from the camera ....

See post #3.

peterbc · Jun 24, 2018

Joel Obrecht said:
Thank you! It most definitely is. Today, I sacrificed a roll of delta100, and saw that its back was flawless all along the film.

I'm more on the side of a kind of drying mark (I'm currently soaking one of the "scratched films" in distilled water to see). Or it could be some reaction to chemicals (Either Rodinal or Spur Acurol were making those marks). But I'll check all the steps.

Mechanically, the film goes along the palm of my hand when I load the reel. But could the palm of my hand be so scratchy???

Recently i used several rolls of Delta 100 120 film in my mamiya7 and had a similar problem on all rolls of developed film. What appeared to be 2 or 3 parallel scratch marks on the negs. which didn't look good.
However the"scratch marks' were not visible on darkroom prints. I cleaned back of my camera, film roller etc thoroughly . It did not seem possible to me that the film roller could cause this problem. I used a different spool in my dev tank as well but I wasn't convinced that was a problem either. Another roll of delta - same problem. I then tried a roll of Acros 100 that I had - no scratch marks!!
I havn't used Delta since then but as I said the prints were OK but I'm still mystified as to was the problem was.

Joel Obrecht · Jul 7, 2018

Dear all,

Finally some news from my sacrificed film.

There were no stripes before nor after loading on the reels. But there were after developing. I think that they very well may be from the chemical baths or the drying.

Nonetheless I got way, way, better results using only distilled water to dilute fresh chemicals instead of (very hard) tap water.

In the same batch I used 2 rolls of t-max 100, 2 rolls of delta 100 (one being the test roll). No stripes on t-max. There are still some that are visible on both delta 100 films on the back coating. But lesser.

Process :
- Bronica GS1
- Stainless steel reels
- 20deg C bath for the processed tanks
- Spur Acurol-n 1:100
- Adox Adostop
- Adox adofix
- 15 min rinse in running tap water
- 15 bath in distilled water

With the same basic setup I processed in C41 digibase chemicals Kodak Ektar without any problems. So I guess, there's something that Ilford back coating doesn't like in mine.

Honestly I didn't test each step, because the stripes are not easy to see when wet. A more thorough test would be to sacrifice more films, and to take one out for each step to rinse and dry. But hey I'm a photographer not a chemist!

I'll quickly write to Spur to ask their opinion, since I used very less diluted Acurol-n in my first batches, and more diluted semi stand development in that one.

Have a nice day

pentaxuser · Jul 7, 2018

Joel Obrecht said:
With the same basic setup I processed in C41 digibase chemicals Kodak Ektar without any problems. So I guess, there's something that Ilford back coating doesn't like in mine..

In the same batch I used 2 rolls of t-max 100, 2 rolls of delta 100 (one being the test roll). No stripes on t-max. There are still some that are visible on both delta 100 films on the back coating. But lesser.

processed in C41 digibase chemicals Kodak Ektar without any problems. So I guess, there's something that Ilford back coating doesn't like in mine.

I'll quickly write to Spur to ask their opinion, since I used very less diluted Acurol-n in my first batches, and more diluted semi stand development in that one.

Have a nice day [/QUOTE]

I am not a chemist either not an apologist for Ilford products but I doubt very much if Ilford D100 has a weakness in respect of processing chemicals that TMax doesn't. I don't imagine either film has this kind of weakness

The dilutions look OK. There is no doubt a reason why the C41 was OK compared to D100 but I am sceptical that it is make of film or type of film related.

I cannot unfortunately point you in the right direction and short of being there when you process I wonder if anyone can pinpoint the issue but I would ask that you don't go down one route for the solution as therein may lie disappointment

pentaxuser.

Lachlan Young · Jul 7, 2018

Joel Obrecht said:
Dear all,

Finally some news from my sacrificed film.

There were no stripes before nor after loading on the reels. But there were after developing. I think that they very well may be from the chemical baths or the drying.

Nonetheless I got way, way, better results using only distilled water to dilute fresh chemicals instead of (very hard) tap water.

In the same batch I used 2 rolls of t-max 100, 2 rolls of delta 100 (one being the test roll). No stripes on t-max. There are still some that are visible on both delta 100 films on the back coating. But lesser.

Process :
- Bronica GS1
- Stainless steel reels
- 20deg C bath for the processed tanks
- Spur Acurol-n 1:100
- Adox Adostop
- Adox adofix
- 15 min rinse in running tap water
- 15 bath in distilled water

With the same basic setup I processed in C41 digibase chemicals Kodak Ektar without any problems. So I guess, there's something that Ilford back coating doesn't like in mine.

Honestly I didn't test each step, because the stripes are not easy to see when wet. A more thorough test would be to sacrifice more films, and to take one out for each step to rinse and dry. But hey I'm a photographer not a chemist!

I'll quickly write to Spur to ask their opinion, since I used very less diluted Acurol-n in my first batches, and more diluted semi stand development in that one.

Have a nice day

The lack of wetting agent in your final rinse & not carefully squeegeeing of the film with your fingers before drying are likely causes of what are probably drying marks - have seen not dissimilar marks which went away with a re-soak in water containing wetting agent & more careful drying.

M Carter · Jul 10, 2018

mnemosyne said:
120 size HP5+ scratches on base side:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/scratches-on-negatives.113141/
Not sure if related to your case
IIRC, there were more similar threads in the past

I just bought some 4x5 and it has those exact crackly patters on the base side. Need to send to Ilford I guess.

mshchem · Jul 11, 2018

AgX said:
See post #3.

I would try shooting a roll in another camera. Or just expose a new roll to room light and process normally. Use purified water and a wetting agent for final rinse. If you see straight scratches or marks in the film with no film transport get ahold of Ilford asap. Wouldn't take much in a older film back to cause a marring or slight scratching of the back of the film. I would check to make sure that the rollers are free to spin, and are clean.
Goodness we don't need another issue like the backing paper on Tmax 400. I would alert Ilford, I'm sure they would want to have a look.
Clearly you're not imagining these defects, just need to find the root cause. This kind of thing can drive a person crazy.
Best of luck, Mike

AgX · Jul 11, 2018

mshchem said:
Wouldn't take much in a older film back to cause a marring or slight scratching of the back of the film.

I can only repeat myself: How??

John Wiegerink · Jul 11, 2018

AgX said:
I can only repeat myself: How??

I agree! I have never had a roll film back or for that matter, a roll film camera that could put a scratch or any mark on 120 film base. On the emulsion side, yes. Now, if you're talking 220 film? That's a whole different ball game. I think M. Carter has the perfect solution to the problem and that is to let Ilford have a look at it. I can't see how this could get by their QC, but it's possible. JohnW

Lachlan Young · Jul 11, 2018

M Carter said:
I just bought some 4x5 and it has those exact crackly patters on the base side. Need to send to Ilford I guess.

Try an hour's re-soak in Ilfotol or similar & pay attention to how you dry the film - too much forced air drying before it's been allowed to drip off a bit can be a cause of strange streaks.

Ilford Delta 100 scratches on the base (120 format)

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