Ilford Cooltone FB first time

ericdan · Jan 22, 2019

just got a box of Cooltone fiber paper. I usually print on MCC110 and MGWT with Neutol WA developer. I also put these thru Selenium and Sepia most of the time. I’m wondering if I can get better highlights with this Cooltone paper. The WT paper has a slightly creamy base.
Can I continue to use Neutol WA?
On the WT paper dektol and Neutol WA look the same to my eye.

tezzasmall · Jan 22, 2019

ericdan said:
just got a box of Cooltone fiber paper. I usually print on MCC110 and MGWT with Neutol WA developer. Can I continue to use Neutol WA?

Let us all know how you get on with the Cooltone paper but the whole point of the paper is in the name = Cooltone = So why would you then want to try and warm it up in a warm tone developer?!?

Try the WT developer if you have some to spare, but I'd be looking at a more standard developer to use to bring out the cooler tones in the paper.

BTW I have only seen it in the Ilford paper swatches and it's made me thinking of ordering some when I next put an order of something in.

Terry S

Michael Wesik · Jan 22, 2019

It depends on what you mean by "better highlights"...

If you're talking highlight separation, contrast, (Zone VII, VIII, IX) etc...that's one thing...if you're talking the actual base of the paper, that's another.

Generally speaking, if I'm using warmtone paper and the highlights are too warm, I'll adjust my exposure and extend my developing time to 5-7 mins. That will give you "cooler" image, which will cool off even more in Selenium.

MattKing · Jan 22, 2019

I use and like very much the RC version.
While I do use it for images that benefit from a cooler tone - usually with selenium toning - I actually like how it responds to sepia and brown toner as well.
It is much more responsive to toning than the more neutral toned "standard" multigrade RC.
Try it and experiment - image tone is a very subjective matter.

Lachlan Young · Jan 22, 2019

I use a lot of this paper - it's a good deal punchier contrast-wise than you might expect. Tones well in selenium - goes cooler then eggplant-ish & will tone well in sulfide etc. Again, don't expect to get it to warm up - even the sepia tends towards the chilly.

ericdan · Jan 22, 2019

Not trying to warm it up. I’m trying to say that on warmtone paper it makes no difference what developer I use. Dektol and Neutol WA look the same.
Does it make a difference on Cooltone?!

Lachlan Young · Jan 22, 2019

ericdan said:
Not trying to warm it up. I’m trying to say that on warmtone paper it makes no difference what developer I use. Dektol and Neutol WA look the same.
Does it make a difference on Cooltone?!

Not significantly with the usual main developers, Multigrade is perhaps a hint cooler than PQ for example. Something with a dose of PMT or similar restrainer might chill it more. If you want really cold, warmtone papers & long gold toning are the best bet.

Michael Wesik · Jan 22, 2019

ericdan said:
Not trying to warm it up. I’m trying to say that on warmtone paper it makes no difference what developer I use. Dektol and Neutol WA look the same.
Does it make a difference on Cooltone?!

If you're talking about the colouration of a straight print, I've only found subtle differences between the developers I've tested with Ilford's coldtone paper. If you're talking about different toning applications, then the developer and developing time matter more.

DREW WILEY · Jan 23, 2019

Developer choice always makes a difference, especially in terms of final image color. MG Cooltone has excellent highlight rendition as long as your film itself does, significantly better than MG4, for example, and comparable to MG Classic in this respect. MGWT is quite different from either, with a much bolder DMax. I prefer to develop MG Cooltone in amidol, then gold tone it rather than selenium, because that gives me consistent silvery cold tones. If I want a wanted something other than "cool", why buy Cooltone to begin with? It's one of the very few papers still on the market that does this well. Conventional developers risk a bit of that greenish Dektol look with it. By comparison, MGWT in a warm developer like 130 followed by gold toning will indeed give you deep blue-black shadows, but not cool highlights! So it is a wonderful paper to accentuate this tendency to split tone using supplementary toners like sulfide. Nothing will make MGWT cool overall.

Michael Wesik · Jan 24, 2019

DREW WILEY said:
Developer choice always makes a difference, especially in terms of final image color. MG Cooltone has excellent highlight rendition as long as your film itself does, significantly better than MG4, for example, and comparable to MG Classic in this respect. MGWT is quite different from either, with a much bolder DMax. I prefer to develop MG Cooltone in amidol, then gold tone it rather than selenium, because that gives me consistent silvery cold tones. If I want a wanted something other than "cool", why buy Cooltone to begin with? It's one of the very few papers still on the market that does this well. Conventional developers risk a bit of that greenish Dektol look with it. By comparison, MGWT in a warm developer like 130 followed by gold toning will indeed give you deep blue-black shadows, but not cool highlights! So it is a wonderful paper to accentuate this tendency to split tone using supplementary toners like sulfide. Nothing will make MGWT cool overall.

I might argue that you can make MGWT "cool." I can think of a few ways. For example, a long initial developing time of 5-7 minutes followed by a GP-1 gold tone will yield a very silvery look; not remotely warm. In my experience, the final aesthetic has more to do with the way you expose a given image, and how long you develop it for, thereby altering the grain of the paper. For sure, the type of developer plays a role in this, along with additives like sodium carbonate, potassium bromide, etc. (Amidol is different animal). And I agree, the papers are inherently different and all have wonderful properties. MGWT simply has more silver in it, and with it, more printing latitude.

SchwinnParamount · Jan 24, 2019

[QUOTE="Lachlan Young, post: 2147580, member: 9175"... Tones well in selenium - goes cooler then eggplant-ish & will tone well in sulfide etc. Again, don't expect to get it to warm up - even the sepia tends towards the chilly.[/QUOTE]

Great information for me. I like the idea of cooler than eggplant-ish. I had been playing with gold tone to get the tone you describe, but from my standard papers. Cool tone + selenium = regular paper + gold tone = John saves time, aggravation, and money.

DREW WILEY · Jan 24, 2019

You can indeed make MGWT "cooler", and MC Classic cooler still, by finely dividing the silver and gold-toning it afterwards, but it's make believe to think you can get a true cold tone image from either paper, like you can from MG Cooltone. Do some comparison tests. You'll see the difference. Hypothetical argument won't help, Michael. I'm not guessing. I work with all these papers and more still, in various developer/toner combinations. Additionally, selenium warms all three of these. I'm not saying to avoid selenium. It's something that can be used either alone or in conjunction with gold for fine-tuning your intended effects. But it won't NEUTRALLY deepen any of these papers like it does with ole graded Ilfobrom. I hate eating eggplant myself. Whether I like it or not in a print all depends on the specific subject. But when I want a silvery coolish gray scale, that's what I want, and not something else.

ericdan · Jan 24, 2019

Michael Wesik said:
I might argue that you can make MGWT "cool." I can think of a few ways. For example, a long initial developing time of 5-7 minutes followed by a GP-1 gold tone will yield a very silvery look; not remotely warm. In my experience, the final aesthetic has more to do with the way you expose a given image, and how long you develop it for, thereby altering the grain of the paper. For sure, the type of developer plays a role in this, along with additives like sodium carbonate, potassium bromide, etc. (Amidol is different animal). And I agree, the papers are inherently different and all have wonderful properties. MGWT simply has more silver in it, and with it, more printing latitude.

Why does MG Warmtone have more silver?

DREW WILEY · Jan 24, 2019

Even the paper base seems different with WT. Of course, you're paying for the higher silver content. Without knowing the full reason for it, at least one function would be the higher DMax. With full development, you get a deeper black, and hence greater overall density range, than MG Classic or Cooltone, and significantly more than MG4. If you read the tech sheets or study the curves per density , remember that this is logarithmic. Then toning deepens things even further. But there's more to it than just silver content. MGWT is engineered to be warm and highly amenable to toners. It's definitely a premium product.

Michael Wesik · Jan 24, 2019

DREW WILEY said:
You can indeed make MGWT "cooler", and MC Classic cooler still, by finely dividing the silver and gold-toning it afterwards, but it's make believe to think you can get a true cold tone image from either paper, like you can from MG Cooltone. Do some comparison tests. You'll see the difference. Hypothetical argument won't help, Michael. I'm not guessing. I work with all these papers and more still, in various developer/toner combinations. Additionally, selenium warms all three of these. I'm not saying to avoid selenium. It's something that can be used either alone or in conjunction with gold for fine-tuning your intended effects. But it won't NEUTRALLY deepen any of these papers like it does with ole graded Ilfobrom. I hate eating eggplant myself. Whether I like it or not in a print all depends on the specific subject. But when I want a silvery coolish gray scale, that's what I want, and not something else.

I don't disagree, thought I do love a good hypothetical argument.

DREW WILEY · Jan 27, 2019

Hypothetical arguments aren't a bad thing - they tempt you to experiment and see if it's the case of not. Some of my best prints were mistakes!

Michael Wesik · Jan 28, 2019

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe that the notion of achieving a cold image on a warmtone paper is hypothesis, it's fact; but I completely agree that different papers have intrinsic properties that can generate different degrees of what might be called a cold colouration. The real hypothesis is trying to define what a truly cold image is, the endeavour of which is subjective and relative. That's really what I was getting at. All that really matters is that you're achieving what you want. All of Ilford's papers are wonderful.

CMoore · Jan 28, 2019

Does anybody know for certain.?.......Regardless of the name on the box, how many Factories/Companies actually make photo paper for the Black & White darkroom.?
Thank You

Sal Santamaura · Jan 28, 2019

CMoore said:
Does anybody know for certain.?.......Regardless of the name on the box, how many Factories/Companies actually make photo paper for the Black & White darkroom.?...

In accordance with "Internet wisdom," the double-weight baryta-coated paper base used by every manufacturer of sensitized darkroom paper comes from Schoeller in Germany. A handful of coating lines (ADOX, Foma, HARMAN, Innoviscoat, Kodak) worldwide then apply emulsion and overcoat to that, which is why today almost most every product has a similar surface texture. Optical brightening agent and hardener variations account for whiteness/gloss differences.

Allegedly, today's low darkroom paper sales volume and Schoeller's high minimum order quantity for base explain why the huge number of choices that were available decades ago have devolved into a no-real-choice situation. There doesn't appear to be sufficient market to pay for different paper bases.

Now Ron, AgX and others can jump in and shoot down my outsider's summary.

DREW WILEY · Jan 29, 2019

Different gelatin sources also have an effect on image color. I still have a stash of EMaks graded paper that allegedly used pig gelatin. It's more yellowish.

ericdan · Feb 12, 2019

To get back to the developer question.
I haven’t had time to test the paper yet but will do tomorrow.
I have Neutol WA on hand but that seems to be the wrong choice for obvious reasons.
PolyMax T and Multigrade Ilford are readily available.
I also plan to tone the paper. I have Selenium and Sepia toners as well as Moersch MT-10 Gold Toner.

MattKing · Feb 13, 2019

I like the RC version in PolyMax T.
Selenium toning adds to the "cool" result.

awty · Feb 13, 2019

I use Tetenal Eukobrom. It gives me the best brightest whites and deep blacks compared to the few other developers I have used.
Wonderful paper if you need maximum contrast range without losing highlight and shadow detail. Tones well with selenium, but not always necessary. Gold sounds interesting.
Thats my limited experience with the paper.
Guess you will just have to experiment with what you have.

awty · Feb 13, 2019

MattKing said:
I like the RC version in PolyMax T.
Selenium toning adds to the "cool" result.

Must try the rc version next and compare.

CMoore · Feb 13, 2019

MattKing said:
I like the RC version in PolyMax T.
Selenium toning adds to the "cool" result.

awty said:
Must try the rc version next and compare.

I have quite a few photo books, and i was going to look in my copy of Ansel Adams...i guess it would be "The Print"
But we are in process of moving and all my books are either at the other house or in a box.
Anyway.....does that book or any other discuss the effect of different developers.?
I have used 3 or 4, but have pretty much stayed with Ilford Multi Grade.
All else equal, do paper developers vary a lot in the way they render the final tones of a print.?
If you printed two of the same negative, would you or might you see a pretty big difference between developer ABC and developer XYZ.?
I realize some brands might have two developers that are very Similar/Same. But two developers that are comprised of different recipes.?
Thank You

Ilford Cooltone FB first time

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