If I'd win the Lottery, I'd build and staff the Ultimate Darkroom

Mr Bill · Jul 25, 2024

mshchem said:
It's just a pipe dream of mine

What do you think

Hi, I sorta feel like I lived it. Working on behalf of someone else, though.

I wish you could have seen the operation 20 years ago. Hi volume lab for a chain outfit. We went through about a dozen master rolls of color paper every day. These were 50" wide masters, the better part of a mile long; we did our own slitting when it was cost-effective, otherwise pre-cut in (nominal) 575 ft x 10 inch rolls. Probably 3 or 4 hundred full-time lab employees, more or less, depending on the time of year. Most of what we printed was in nominal 8x10" units, all color-corrected by hand, to a tolerance, and dust-spotted. In-house camera repair shop for our own gear; probably around 25 to 35 full-time employees including the shipping/receiving department.

The company was very frugal, to be polite. So pay was never quite enough, but my opportunity to learn was so great I considered it the price of education. As a QC guy one of the things we did was to solve production problems related to quality, which included extensive testing of (our) professional films and papers. And as a significant customer with corporate non-disclosure agreements we always had first rate tech support from the major manufacturers. Far beyond what any regular photographer/lab person would expect. Probably beyond what even former Kodak employees here would expect.

All this was pretty much beyond my wildest dreams as a kid whose main ambition was to one day be a Life Magazine photographer (they shut down too soon). I figured to one day return to full-time photography, after learning "enough." But it never ended. Well, not till the company went bankrupt, roughly same time as Kodak. Our main business had been selling prints, and, well, it got to where people just didn't need/want prints anymore.

mshchem · Jul 25, 2024

Mr Bill said:
Hi, I sorta feel like I lived it. Working on behalf of someone else, though.

I wish you could have seen the operation 20 years ago. Hi volume lab for a chain outfit. We went through about a dozen master rolls of color paper every day. These were 50" wide masters, the better part of a mile long; we did our own slitting when it was cost-effective, otherwise pre-cut in (nominal) 575 ft x 10 inch rolls. Probably 3 or 4 hundred full-time lab employees, more or less, depending on the time of year. Most of what we printed was in nominal 8x10" units, all color-corrected by hand, to a tolerance, and dust-spotted. In-house camera repair shop for our own gear; probably around 25 to 35 full-time employees including the shipping/receiving department.

The company was very frugal, to be polite. So pay was never quite enough, but my opportunity to learn was so great I considered it the price of education. As a QC guy one of the things we did was to solve production problems related to quality, which included extensive testing of (our) professional films and papers. And as a significant customer with corporate non-disclosure agreements we always had first rate tech support from the major manufacturers. Far beyond what any regular photographer/lab person would expect. Probably beyond what even former Kodak employees here would expect.

All this was pretty much beyond my wildest dreams as a kid whose main ambition was to one day be a Life Magazine photographer (they shut down too soon). I figured to one day return to full-time photography, after learning "enough." But it never ended. Well, not till the company went bankrupt, roughly same time as Kodak. Our main business had been selling prints, and, well, it got to where people just didn't need/want prints anymore.

That's an amazing story. I guess that's beyond my dream, still running some big rolls would be very cool!

Mr Bill · Jul 25, 2024

mshchem said:
That's an amazing story. I guess that's beyond my dream, still running some big rolls would be very cool!

Well, it was a way to make a living, for sure. Lots of routine work mixed with a lot of interesting problems to deal with, and far beyond that, while slowly feeding my fixation, or whatever it is/was.

Running some big rolls takes a lot of negatives to expose them with, which in turn takes a lot of photographers. Or perhaps a few very prolific shooters. Then some sort of machine to do the processing. We did the exposures with so-called Nord "package printers" built by Photo Control Corp, which could expose the entire roll in something like 40 minutes. Using an automatic film advance system which winds to the appropriate negatives, blah, blah, blah.

Before we converted our studios to full digital our workhorse paper processors were Pako model CP-6000 units, configured to run three lanes of 10" wide paper at 28 ft per minute. That's about 125 8x10s per minute coming out. (Each 575 ft roll was roughly 575 x 12/8 = ~860 8x10" prints per roll. So three such rolls took about 20 minutes of machine time.)

On occasion the Technical Services people from paper manufacturers (Kodak, Konica, and Fuji, mainly, in those days) would bring new reps into our facility as part of their break-in. Now for Fuji and Konica these would typically be former pro photographers with some pro lab experience (we're in the US). So we'd give a brief tour, maybe 5 or 6 of us in total.

If we stopped near one of the processing "pads" (a poured concrete base, sloped to contain and collect any possible chemical spill) the new guy would invariably get "stuck" at the take-up of one of the CP-6000s. (There is about a 2 or 3 foot open section where the processed paper is open to view before it winds up.) So you can stand there and watch the prints rolling out, maybe 2 seconds of view time. Under a high quality viewing lamp. It's easy to get caught up in this; I'd say about 2/3 of what comes out is really good quality, and about 1/3 is maybe exceptionally good. (I'm talking mainly the subjects, posing and expressions; the color is nearly always in the realm of pro-lab quality.)

Anyway the new guy invariably gets caught up in watching prints come out, and after about a half minute starts calling out for his friends. "So-and-so, come here and look at this! These are good! These are REALLY good!" ... "I'm not kidding! Come here and look at these!" So they answer back, "We know." (We've all been there, and understand what's going on in his mind.) After a few minutes they ask if he's ready to leave yet, and of course he is not. Roughly 125 prints per minute going by, but one can mostly only concentrate on one lane at a time. They eventually talk the guy into leaving, after maybe 5 minutes or so.

Anyway, thanks for bearing with me. It's just a snapshot in time, using equipment that was once well-known in the industry, but today seems lost to the memory of the internet.

mshchem · Jul 25, 2024

Mr Bill said:
Well, it was a way to make a living, for sure. Lots of routine work mixed with a lot of interesting problems to deal with, and far beyond that, while slowly feeding my fixation, or whatever it is/was.

Running some big rolls takes a lot of negatives to expose them with, which in turn takes a lot of photographers. Or perhaps a few very prolific shooters. Then some sort of machine to do the processing. We did the exposures with so-called Nord "package printers" built by Photo Control Corp, which could expose the entire roll in something like 40 minutes. Using an automatic film advance system which winds to the appropriate negatives, blah, blah, blah.

Before we converted our studios to full digital our workhorse paper processors were Pako model CP-6000 units, configured to run three lanes of 10" wide paper at 28 ft per minute. That's about 125 8x10s per minute coming out. (Each 575 ft roll was roughly 575 x 12/8 = ~860 8x10" prints per roll. So three such rolls took about 20 minutes of machine time.)

On occasion the Technical Services people from paper manufacturers (Kodak, Konica, and Fuji, mainly, in those days) would bring new reps into our facility as part of their break-in. Now for Fuji and Konica these would typically be former pro photographers with some pro lab experience (we're in the US). So we'd give a brief tour, maybe 5 or 6 of us in total.

If we stopped near one of the processing "pads" (a poured concrete base, sloped to contain and collect any possible chemical spill) the new guy would invariably get "stuck" at the take-up of one of the CP-6000s. (There is about a 2 or 3 foot open section where the processed paper is open to view before it winds up.) So you can stand there and watch the prints rolling out, maybe 2 seconds of view time. Under a high quality viewing lamp. It's easy to get caught up in this; I'd say about 2/3 of what comes out is really good quality, and about 1/3 is maybe exceptionally good. (I'm talking mainly the subjects, posing and expressions; the color is nearly always in the realm of pro-lab quality.)

Anyway the new guy invariably gets caught up in watching prints come out, and after about a half minute starts calling out for his friends. "So-and-so, come here and look at this! These are good! These are REALLY good!" ... "I'm not kidding! Come here and look at these!" So they answer back, "We know." (We've all been there, and understand what's going on in his mind.) After a few minutes they ask if he's ready to leave yet, and of course he is not. Roughly 125 prints per minute going by, but one can mostly only concentrate on one lane at a time. They eventually talk the guy into leaving, after maybe 5 minutes or so.

Anyway, thanks for bearing with me. It's just a snapshot in time, using equipment that was once well-known in the industry, but today seems lost to the memory of the internet.

Fascinating!!!

MattKing · Jul 25, 2024

That fascination with the roll of prints coming out also applies to much smaller quantities, narrower rolls, and much smaller Kreonite processors.
Of course, when I used to do that, I had been the one handling the film and adjusting the machine printer settings that created the roll in the first place, as well as the one who loaded the unprocessed exposed roll into the Kreonite .

mshchem · Jul 25, 2024

It dawned on me I don't need a technician as much as a curator. Too much stuff!

Vaughn · Jul 26, 2024

If I were King,
I'd declare every day a holiday.
Then I'd abdicate
and become a bank teller.

With all the money and the Crown jewels, of course, I would build a nice small place to live with a connected darkroom and a small gallery space. There's a nice piece of land close to my present home. Next to a creek, which my millions would help with the creek's restoration. Oh, and at the end of the property, which is along an old rail line, would be a large caboose which would be a meeting place for our local fellows (Mad River Old Crows) for drinking, horseshoe and bocce playing, and occasional doing of good deeds around town. We are an NGO...No Guilt or Obligation type of organization.

No staff - the gallery would be by appointment only or perhaps open when I felt like it. Basically a nice room to keep a bunch of prints up.

mshchem · Jul 26, 2024

Vaughn said:
If I were King,
I'd declare every day a holiday.
Then I'd abdicate
and become a bank teller.

With all the money and the Crown jewels, of course, I would build a nice small place to live with a connected darkroom and a small gallery space. There's a nice piece of land close to my present home. Next to a creek, which my millions would help with the creek's restoration. Oh, and at the end of the property, which is along an old rail line, would be a large caboose which would be a meeting place for our local fellows (Mad River Old Crows) for drinking, horseshoe and bocce playing, and occasional doing of good deeds around town. We are an NGO...No Guilt or Obligation type of organization.

No staff - the gallery would be by appointment only or perhaps open when I felt like it. Basically a nice room to keep a bunch of prints up.

Sounds wonderful!

Carnie Bob · Jul 27, 2024

I have the a dream darkroom , framing space and gallery, I live above it all and we work every day quite contently. But if I won the lottery
I would purchase a property in the country and duplicate my setup here in the city. I think there is a saying build it and they would come.

Vaughn · Jul 27, 2024

Your situation reminded me that for 40 years or so I also had the Dream Darkroom. The first half of that was with keys to the university darkroom as a volunteer, then another 20 in charge of the photo facilities. Free water, electricity, basic chemistry, and all. Space to spread out. Twenty-four/seven access for me. I worked around the student needs. A couple nights (sometimes 3) a week I would get there at 9pm and start prepping for a night's work. I'd help students if asked and help the lab assistant close the darkroom down at midnight -- then I print or whatever until 6:30am. While prints washed, I'd put all my stuff away and get the classroom and darkroom ready for the 8am classes. I'd go into town, get some breakfast, and go back up to the university to start work at 10am.

Alas, when I retired, I also retired from a pretty sweet darkroom...but it has not been easy (still isn't) to break from a few decades of work habits. I still start to get creatively energized in the late evening, but at 70 my body says it's time to kick back. I occasionally do an all-nighter (dang habits), but it will be a couple days before I bounce back.

GregY · Jul 27, 2024

Chan Tran said:
I build and equip the darkroom but no staff. The idea of having of darkroom is to do it myself.

Yes.... my ideal darkroom might have better facilities, but i don't want people underfoot.

Chan Tran · Jul 27, 2024

GregY said:
Yes.... my ideal darkroom might have better facilities, but i don't want people underfoot.

That's because I am not a professional photographer that is I don't intend to make money with photography. If I were in the photo business I would hire people to do it all for me, taking pictures and all, I just make the the money.

GregY · Jul 27, 2024

Chan Tran said:
That's because I am not a professional photographer that is I don't intend to make money with photography. If I were in the photo business I would hire people to do it all for me, taking pictures and all, I just make the the money.

if i turned it into a business i would quit taking photographs.... a bigger business end would not feed my soul.

If I'd win the Lottery, I'd build and staff the Ultimate Darkroom

Do you process film and/or paper

Yes

No

Want to

Mr Bill

mshchem

Mr Bill

mshchem

MattKing

Moderator

mshchem

Vaughn

mshchem

Carnie Bob

Vaughn

GregY

Chan Tran

GregY

If I'd win the Lottery, I'd build and staff the Ultimate Darkroom

Do you process film and/or paper

Yes

No

Want to

Moderator

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