ID11/D76 v XTOL

Martin Aislabie · Aug 5, 2009

I am curious about others practical experiences when comparing XTOL to ID11/D76

Having used ID11 at 1+1 for several decades to develop HP5 & FP4, I have started to wonder if XTOL might be worthy of investigation.

I would like:-

A bit more shadow detail,
Maintain highlight separation
Maintain smooth progressive Mid-Tones
Retain the ability to stretch & compress HP5s tonal range
Maintain the same levels of fine grain that ID11 delivers.

I have tried Rodinal but didnt like the more pronounced clumpy grain structure.

I thought XTOL might give me some or most of those as it is supposedly similar but slightly better than ID11/D76

The physical act of mixing powdered Dev is OK with me in fact I prefer it to liquid Devs.

I tend to do my film development in batches so having the Dev supplied as powders means I can make up fresh stock each and every time and use it without worry about sudden death or any slow aging problems.

Anybody care to share their experiences good/bad/indifferent?

Thanks

Martin

Thomas Bertilsson · Aug 5, 2009

Xtol will do everything on your list, but with slightly finer grain.

Photo Engineer · Aug 5, 2009

Look at this comparison which we had been discussing on another thread.

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/prof...wFilmProcessing/selecting.jhtml?pq-path=14053

PE

PhotoJim · Aug 5, 2009

The only negative to XTOL is that when it dies, it doesn't discolour, so a person has to be fairly vigilant about using it up reasonably quickly (<6 months if stored in full dark bottles). There are lots of reports of people using it past this point but there is risk if you do that. D-76 shouldn't be used past this point either but it gets very dark so you can tell that it needs to be discarded.

XTOL is also very nice to mix since you can mix it at room temperature. If you need to use the chemical quickly, there is no need to wait for it to cool.

Thomas Bertilsson · Aug 5, 2009

Or use it replenished. With constant replenishment, (I'm talking 100ml stock every two weeks or so), even if you don't process film, you keep the working solution alive for a very long time, perpetually unless you contaminate it.

And, it gets sharper and finer grain. And you use less chemistry per film, putting it in the "very economical" category.

- Thomas

PhotoJim said:
The only negative to XTOL is that when it dies, it doesn't discolour, so a person has to be fairly vigilant about using it up reasonably quickly (<6 months if stored in full dark bottles). There are lots of reports of people using it past this point but there is risk if you do that. D-76 shouldn't be used past this point either but it gets very dark so you can tell that it needs to be discarded.

XTOL is also very nice to mix since you can mix it at room temperature. If you need to use the chemical quickly, there is no need to wait for it to cool.

keithwms · Aug 5, 2009

Especially for smaller formats, xtol is something to consider, to eke out a bit more detail.

I once did a comparison of xtol and perceptol to ID11 on some 4x5 negs and saw *zero* differences in print, but I admit that they were small enlargements, maybe 11x14 or so, and the negs didn't have enough tonal range to really test for differences.

bill spears · Aug 5, 2009

I've not used XTOL a great deal so probably not qualified to judge it but I think as Thomas says you should get slightly finer grain (all other things being equal). The finer grain might come at the expense of a small loss of sharpness though and I did notice some of my negs looking slightly 'mushy' once but this could be due to my lack of experience with this developer.
Perceptol, which I use alot, is also a fine grain brew but if you dilute it down to 1:2 or 3 and use it with a traditional emulsion (FP4,HP5 etc) the sharpness is outstanding and Pan F in dilute Perceptol will make your teeth bleed !! You will need to lower the film speed considerably though to keep shadow detail.

I wonder whether diluting down Xtol has the same effect of increasing sharpness ??

cmo · Aug 6, 2009

Quite simple. Think of XTol as the D76 of this century. It is better in all respects, and it's cheap.

The only thing I would like to improve is a color indicator that shows when the solution is dead. I don't need it because I mix and store it properly. But it would stop that endless discussion about "why does a developer that was mixed a year ago not SHOW that it's dead?"...

Bill, diluting XTol increases sharpness and shadow detail, grain becomes a little more visible. I use it only at 1:1. Some people dilute it up to 1:3, but then you must make sure you have at least 100ml of working solution per film in the tank.

Jedidiah Smith · Aug 6, 2009

I'm probably just dense, but could someone explain how Xtol is inexpensive compared to D76? Is it just that you use less of the stock solution so it lasts longer? I mean, if it was an equal "amount" comparison I don't see it, but if you use less Xtol per roll developed than D76, then that makes sense. ($9+ for 5L Xtol, $6+ for 1Gal. D76 at Freestyle).

Comment about the Xtol and Perceptol: I remember about 2 years ago I did some tests when I was on a Fuji Neopan Acros kick, and souped some of it in Perceptol. I was impressed. Finest grain I have ever seen from a 35mm neg. I made an 11x14 print of a portrait that blew me away for "clarity" from that roll. Not sure if Xtol was as good, but it was no slouch either.
Thanks,
Jed

cmo · Aug 6, 2009

Jedidiah Smith said:
I'm probably just dense, but could someone explain how Xtol is inexpensive compared to D76? Is it just that you use less of the stock solution so it lasts longer? I mean, if it was an equal "amount" comparison I don't see it, but if you use less Xtol per roll developed than D76, then that makes sense. ($9+ for 5L Xtol, $6+ for 1Gal. D76 at Freestyle)

At 1:1, my standard dilution for XTol, I can develop 50 films with 5 liters in my Jobo tanks. That package costs me a little less than 8 Euros, 0.16 Euros per film.

At 1:1, a package of 3.8 liters D76 is good for 38 films. It costs about 6 Euros, 0.16 Euros per film.

At least here it is the same price. Jedidiah, you are right.

Most developers - especially most "magic bullet" soups - are much more expensive.

Some examples:
- Tetenal Neofin Blue, 10 Euros for 10 films
- Rollei Low Speed, 13 Euros for 19 films (0.68 Euros per film)
- Rollei RLC, 27 Euros for 16 films (1.69 Euros per film)
- Ilfotec DD-X, 19 Euros for 15 films (1.27 Euros per film)

Of course, each of them has a special purpose, so I do not condemn any of these.

Just for comparison: a 500ml bottle of original Agfa Rodinal costs ca. 12 Euros here, at 1:25 it's good for 50 films, that's 0.24 cents per film or 0.12 cents at 1:50. It's the same league and always referred to as "cheap".

But there is always a price-crusher: HC-110, diluted 1:19, 0.08 cents per film.

No, I am not a scrooge, and the Ghost of Christmas Present will not pay a visit to my home. But as we have a crisis this little overview might be useful as a lead for students and others with a limited budget.

Thomas Bertilsson · Aug 6, 2009

About cost:

When you replenish this developer, you use somewhere in the neighborhood of 70 to 100ml per film of stock solution.
If you pay $10 for a packet of Xtol, which gives 5,000ml of stock, you can process 50-70 rolls of film for $10. That's 20 cents per roll as a worst case scenario.

AND, you get the benefit of added sharpness and finer grain. It's win win, and simply the most wonderful way of processing film. Real and solid quality combined with real economy.

I have let my batch sit for an entire month without processing any film. I still replenish 70ml every two weeks, just to be safe. And it works like a charm when you bring it out to work again. It's a very reliable and stable process. The stock must be stored so that the bottles are full, so accordion style bottles, or bottles with marbles, or a lot of small bottles is how you want to proceed.

Jedidiah Smith said:
I'm probably just dense, but could someone explain how Xtol is inexpensive compared to D76? Is it just that you use less of the stock solution so it lasts longer? I mean, if it was an equal "amount" comparison I don't see it, but if you use less Xtol per roll developed than D76, then that makes sense. ($9+ for 5L Xtol, $6+ for 1Gal. D76 at Freestyle).

Comment about the Xtol and Perceptol: I remember about 2 years ago I did some tests when I was on a Fuji Neopan Acros kick, and souped some of it in Perceptol. I was impressed. Finest grain I have ever seen from a 35mm neg. I made an 11x14 print of a portrait that blew me away for "clarity" from that roll. Not sure if Xtol was as good, but it was no slouch either.
Thanks,
Jed

Andrew Horodysky · Aug 6, 2009

Thomas, Would you explain the replenishment process, step by step?

I use Xtol, but don't replenish.

Thanks.

Thomas Bertilsson · Aug 6, 2009

Andrew,

Take 2 liters from a batch of Xtol, put it in a 2L bottle (or 2quart, it doesn't really matter). Make this your working solution.
When you process a roll, or rolls, of film, you take whatever volume you need from your working solution and use that to process. While the film is in the developer, take 70ml (or so) of fresh stock and pour it into the working solution storage container. (70ml is what Kodak recommends, some people claim they need 100ml per roll, but that's individual, you have to gauge if you start to lose density in your negs, you need to replenish with more stock solution. You cannot over-replenish, though, so if you want to use 100ml).

When you're done developing the film, pour what you can of the solution back into the storage container to completely top it off, and discard what's left over.

Go to Google and search the following string: "site:www.kodak.com xtol"
That will bring up the data sheet where the Kodak recommendations are.

Developing times - don't look for a recommendation. My film, Tmax 400, is processed anywhere from 8 to 10 minutes with varying agitation methods in order to get just the right contrast for my paper of choice. Basically, you have to figure it out for yourself to get it just right. Don't go to the Massive Development Chart. It won't help. It also depends on the type of enlarger you use.

One more thing. When you start your batch, the developer will act differently than after it has been seasoned. You season it as you process rolls, and after a couple of hand-full films the process will start to stabilize. If you have some unimportant film, it's perfect to use these to start the batch. Or even better, if you have some outdated film that you were not going to use, expose it to daylight, process, and throw away.

- Thomas

trexx · Aug 6, 2009

I think Thomas and I use it the same, my process.
Measure what is needed for development from working, read replenished, XTOL jug.
For each roll of film developed place 70-100 ml of replenisher in to the XTOL jug.
When done developing pour the developer from the tank back in the XTOL jug, but there will be about 70 ml left to toss per roll.

When I first mix XTOL, 5 liter pack, I place in two 2 L and one 1 liter jugs. One 2 L is my XTOL jug the other is replenisher. The 1 L is a collapsible good for .4 - 1.5 L. I use this collapsible as the source of the 70 ml I add. When it cannot collapse anymore I move over some from the replenisher.

aldevo · Aug 6, 2009

I've minimal experience with XTOL, so I can't intelligently comment on how it stacks up vs. D-76 and other developers.

But I do feel comfortable stating that you should absolutely 100% make certain to mix it with distilled water that you can be sure is free (or very, very, very nearly free) of iron-based compounds. The "sudden exhaustion" syndrome of ascorbate developers is generally attributable to a sensitivity to these compounds. If you search APUG, you'll find references to threads discussing it.

My own need to develop film comes in fits and spurts (I go months without developing any film and then suddenly develop 20-25 rolls in a few weeks!) so XTOL doesn't really fit my needs. The same is true of most developers that are hand-mixed into stock solutions from powders (PC-TEA being an exception).

Andrew Horodysky · Aug 6, 2009

Thanks much, Thomas.

Thomas Bertilsson · Aug 6, 2009

Andrew, my pleasure. Unless you contaminate the working solution, you should be able to keep it going perpetually. So after you use up your first 5L kit, you can mix up a new 5L kit and use ALL of it as replenishing solution. It really is a thing of beauty.

What you want from the old developer is the leftover byproducts from developing. Those by-products are what make a difference. Don't forget to replenish every week or two weeks if you're not processing film, just to keep the process stable.

About distilled water. I'm not sure about that one. A lot of labs that process black & white film commercially use Xtol. The lab I used to work with used regular city tap water and kept the same Xtol seasoned batch for five years before they shut down. Just kept replenishing it. Very stable process.

- Thomas

Jedidiah Smith · Aug 6, 2009

Yes, thank you both to CMO and Thomas. Very detailed price and usage instructions! I do believe I will try this, it seems to be a great way to use and reap the benefits of Xtol within my (currently quite limited) budget. Someday I hope to not have to worry so much about such things! But for now... Thanks!

Jed

Dave in Kansas · Aug 6, 2009

If you use an Xtol stock solution diluted, say 1:1, can that be also be replenished, or are the keeping properties bad requiring it to always be used as a one-shot developer?

Dave

Thomas Bertilsson · Aug 6, 2009

No. Replenishment depends on adding a certain amount of fresh developer while you retain the byproducts from processing.

So, you need a certain amount of concentrate to retain the activity of the solution. If you dilute it 1:1 you would need to pour in twice as much, but you'd also add 1 part water that you don't really need.

Either way, you spend the same amount of concentrated stock solution, so it doesn't really make sense to dilute it when replenishing.

Dave in Kansas · Aug 6, 2009

Thanks, Thomas. I take it you don't dilute.

Dave

ID11/D76 v XTOL

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