ID-78 not working. Bad chemicals?

I'd like to try ID-78 after reading about it in @Ian Grant 's website http://www.lostlabours.co.uk/photography/formulae/developers/devID78.htm

I mixed it using my phenidone-glycol solution, but it didn't work: a daylight-exposed piece of paper couldn't reach anything more than a slight gray after more than 5 minutes in the developer.
But there was a caveat: i mixed the stock solution and left it a week before diluting it 1+3.
So i tried again, with powder phenidone this time, using it right after mixing: same results.

Can it be oxidised phenidone's fault? Powder is still a nice colour, slightly beige. I've only used it six mnths ago to mix a batch of pyrocat hd that seems to work fine.

I frequently use my Hydroquinone in d72 and d76, they seem to work fine with standard dev times.
Sodium carbonate/sulphite and potassium bromide, well, i don't think they can go bad and they are used in the above formulations as well.

What can it be?

Paper was fomabrom 111, if it matters.

Can you post a photo of the phenidone you're using, and any additional details on the material (label on the bottle, if any, source you obtained from etc.)? How are you storing it? I've never had problems with my phenidone (different batches) which I keep in plastic and glass bottles without any protection other than just screwing the cap back on securely after use. My present batch of phenidone is a very pale yellow finely divided powder. Previously I had a batch that was white crystals. They both dissolved rather slowly.

I've used ID78 a lot, also diluted from stock many months after mixing the concentrate, always without problems. It's a dependable, straightforward formula. I've also used phenidone-in-glycol and phenidone-in-ethanol solutions extensively and they've never given me any problems.

i'll take a picture this evening.
it came in a plastic envelope, unfortunately the label is long gone but i bought it from a polish supplier who specifically listed it ad photo developer agent.
I've kept it in a plastic container with a tight pressed-in lid, an ex medicine container, in a dark, not humid place. It's more or less the same colour it has ever been, and it's the veeeeery fine powder type. No clumps, nothing.
The 1% glycol solution i used the first time is kept in the same dark place in a glass laboratory bottle with plastic cap. It's still quite clear, it forms some crystals in the winter time that dissolve in 60-70°C bain-marie.

tykos said:

It's still quite clear, it forms some crystals in the winter time that dissolve in 60-70°C bain-marie.

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That's odd. I've never had a 1% phenidone solution producing crystals or requiring heating to redissolve. The solubility limit should be around 5% at room temperature, so getting precipitation at 1% is definitely not what I'd expect.

Both your phenidone and hydroquinone would need to be dead to get that result. Extremely unlikely they are both completely dead. Are you sure you used the correct amounts and included everything?

I use ID-78 for almost all my prints, I've never had an issue with either Phenidone or Hydroquinone, both keep exceptionally well, I tested some 1961 Ilford Phenidone a couple of yeras ago.

Daylight exposed paper may not reach full Dmax because you have effectively grossly over-exposed it and the silver salts will have already started printing out. You need to do a prpoer darkroom test print.

Ian

koraks said:

That's odd. I've never had a 1% phenidone solution producing crystals or requiring heating to redissolve. The solubility limit should be around 5% at room temperature, so getting precipitation at 1% is definitely not what I'd expect.

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pyrocat has the same behaviour. Probably because that room temperature can be around 2-5°C in the wintertime, who knows...

Don_ih said:

Both your phenidone and hydroquinone would need to be dead to get that result. Extremely unlikely they are both completely dead. Are you sure you used the correct amounts and included everything?

View attachment 395830

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quite sure, those amounts (1/2 those amounts, as i mixed it in 0,5L of water).
Two big errors in two different mixes is also quite difficult, to be honest.

Ian Grant said:

I use ID-78 for almost all my prints, I've never had an issue with either Phenidone or Hydroquinone, both keep exceptionally well, I tested some 1961 Ilford Phenidone a couple of yeras ago.

Daylight exposed paper may not reach full Dmax because you have effectively grossly over-exposed it and the silver salts will have already started printing out. You need to do a prpoer darkroom test print.

Ian

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i tried with a normal test strip, 1+3, appearance time was like 1,5-2 minutes. A very faint appearance. "Dumb me and my short times of exposure", another strip with way longer times, same result.
I then flashed with the room light, same result.
This with both batches.

Some other possibilities:
- contamination. But two very very similar contaminations in two different rooms with two different sets of tools, darkrooms where i usually mix my chemicals without any problem ever?
- contamination, again: the first time i used like .5gr of edta to have a clearer solution, the second time none.
- wrong mixing order: i mixed id78 in the written order, like i always do
- temperature: the first batch was mixed with water at 50-55°C, the second one at 28-30°C (i didn't have the time or some very cold water to bring it at working temp)
- not enough mixing: i mean, there was no visible suspension at all, i mixed for quite some time. Plus hydroquinone dissolves very well, it alone should've worked better than this.

There's absolutely no chance of a mixup or simply having forgotten to add either of the two developing agents? The very faint image is consistent with either developing agent missing, since they form a superadditive pair.

The first step I'd take is mix a developer of just phenidone (e.g. POTA) and verify it works as expected. Then do the same with the hydroquinone. Based on these tests, take further analytic action.

koraks said:

There's absolutely no chance of a mixup or simply having forgotten to add either of the two developing agents? The very faint image is consistent with either developing agent missing, since they form a superadditive pair.

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i measure them one at a time right before dumping it in water, they also are in two different style containers, once phenidone was in glycol. I've put both agents both times, that's for sure.

koraks said:

The first step I'd take is mix a developer of just phenidone (e.g. POTA) and verify it works as expected. Then do the same with the hydroquinone. Based on these tests, take further analytic action.

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i'll do that.
a suggestion of a hydroquinone-only developer? (i don't think it's the culprit, as d72 and d76 give me quite decent results)

tykos said:

a suggestion of a hydroquinone-only developer?

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You could try a lith developer; those are often HQ-only.

i'll look into it and resume this thread with my results, thanks for now.