ID-78 (Neutol WA replacement?)

After doing extensive tests with different developers and dilutions on foma 532 paper, I found Neutol WA to be the best for my purposes (deep blacks with strong bright highlights). Then, in my ignorance, I found out that the Agfa Neutol WA was no longer with us. R.I.P

My question is: How similar is ID-78 to Neutol WA and should I trust the information listed below to begin my mixing project? Also, was ID-78 ever really produced by Ilford or is this just a chemical mix that they suggest as a replacement. And finally, do I shake this stuff up or just let it dissolve naturally. I plan on making like 10 gallons of this stuff! Sorry if this post seems naive, but I have been spoiled with pre-made liquid developers.:rolleyes:

Warm tone paper developer

Water, 125F/52C 750 ml
Phenidone 0.5 g
Sodium Sulfite (anhydrous) 50 g
Hydroquinone 12 g
Sodium Carbonate (anhydrous) 62 g
Potassium Bromide 4.5 g
Cold water to make 1L
Mixing instructions: Add chemicals in specified sequence.

Dilution: 1+1 to 1+3

Note 1: This formula is also published as containing only 0.4g Potassium Bromide, but this smaller amount appears to be an error. Ilford's own publications specify 4.5g which is the amount listed here.

Note 2: This formula can be used as a replacement for Agfa Neutol WA.

Can't answer the question re' ID-78 compared to Neutol WA but Neutol WA is available. A&O, who took over the AgfaPhoto chemicals, has continued production - though supplies are less widespread than before. There are several suppliers in the UK so I'd assume it is available in the US.

Stir powers into water, not shake - you don't want to mix lots of air in with it. Formulas normally expect you to add the ingredients in order, making sure each has dissolved before adding the next. This is not always critical, but sometimes you need the mixture to be (for example) alkaline before adding the next ingredient as that chemical will only dissolve in an alkaline environment.

[edit: having wrote that, I notice they say to add Phenidone before the sulphite: IIRC (debatable) phenidone wants an alkaline environment to dissolve in water so a pinch, if not the whole, of the sulphite should probably be dissolved in the water first - but wait for those with greater knowledge on such things than I to cornfirm (or not!) before taking my word on it...]

Have fun, Bob.

PhilipRingler said:

After doing extensive tests with different developers and dilutions on foma 532 paper, I found Neutol WA to be the best for my purposes (deep blacks with strong bright highlights). Then, in my ignorance, I found out that the Agfa Neutol WA was no longer with us. R.I.P

My question is: How similar is ID-78 to Neutol WA and should I trust the information listed below to begin my mixing project? Also, was ID-78 ever really produced by Ilford or is this just a chemical mix that they suggest as a replacement. And finally, do I shake this stuff up or just let it dissolve naturally. I plan on making like 10 gallons of this stuff! Sorry if this post seems naive, but I have been spoiled with pre-made liquid developers.:rolleyes:

Warm tone paper developer

Water, 125F/52C 750 ml
Phenidone 0.5 g
Sodium Sulfite (anhydrous) 50 g
Hydroquinone 12 g
Sodium Carbonate (anhydrous) 62 g
Potassium Bromide 4.5 g
Cold water to make 1L
Mixing instructions: Add chemicals in specified sequence.

Dilution: 1+1 to 1+3

Note 1: This formula is also published as containing only 0.4g Potassium Bromide, but this smaller amount appears to be an error. Ilford's own publications specify 4.5g which is the amount listed here.

Note 2: This formula can be used as a replacement for Agfa Neutol WA.

Click to expand...

I believe that the ID-78 formula was posted on APUG by Ian Grant. I use ID-78 and I like it a lot.

I believe Ian has written that the amount of KBr (potassium bromide) can be varied over a wide range for tonal adjustment. Tone Adjustment can also be done by changing the dilution.

To mix it I use a plastic bucket, pour in the listed amount of water (distilled or filtered) and then completely dissolve each chemical sequentially (in the listed order) by stirring with a Large plastic spoon (I use a long handled one).

I received some Agfa Neutol WA just the other week direct from Freestyle. It's still alive and kicking, and pretty much all I use anymore.

Philip, check out this APUG thread (Ilford ID-78, Agfa Neutol WA comparison):

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

While Neutol WA and ID-78 are quite different formulae they give very similar results, and ID-78 has a far better shelf-life.

Ilford published ID-78 as a warm-tone developer in the last specifically Ilford edition of the Manual of Photography and LA Mason, the head of Research at Ilford also published it in his book "Photographic Processing Chemistry". I don't think it was ever commercially released. The amount of Bromide was mistakenly misprinted in a US lab guide in the 60s and the mistake perpetuated throughout many US publications.

If you want to make up bulk quantities then I don't suggest the formula as it is, rather the weights listed below, which are more akin to the concentration of PQ Universal or other Ilford commercial liquid print developers.:

Concentrated Stock Solution ID-78
Phenidone 1.25 g 18.75 g
Sodium Sulphite (anh) 125 g 625 g
Hydroquinone 30 g 150 g
Sodium Carbonate (anh) 155 g 775 g
Potassium Bromide 11.25 g 56.25 g
Water to 1 litre 5 litres

To use: Dilute 1+9, use 1+4 for higher contrast

I've been using this formula for about 25 years, alongside using Neutol WA, and the results\are indistinguishable.

Ian

This is an interesting thread, I've been using Neutol WA for quite a few years now for some prints. It is now out of stock from my local suppliers, so I've been looking at mixing my own.

Just to add interest this is the published formula from my 5th edition of the Ilford manual of photography, published in May 1958. Mine is the 8th reprint, March 1968.

Page 651 has ID-78 and they specify:-

Sodium Sulphite, anhyd. 50g
Hydroquinone 12g
Sodium carbonate, anhyd. 62g
Phenidone 0.5g
Potassium bromide 4.5g
Water to 1lt

So they have a different top to bottom listing of ingredients.

Ian, do you have any trouble in getting the chemicals into solution?

Mick.

Mick, I sometimes mix it up in the order listed in the Ilford Manual of Photography, but these days I always mix the more concentrated version I posted above. It's far more convenient to use & takes up less storage space

Often I'll just add the Phenidone mixed in with the sulphite, I've never had a problem getting even the more concentrated version to dissolve completely.

Ian

I mix it up at 3x the original strength with the following alterations which make it easier to dissolve:
Dimezone-S instead of phenidone (1.3 times the phenidone amount 0.65x3=about 2g/L), and
potassium carbonate instead of sodium carbonate (81g/L times 3=243g/L)

500mL diluted 1+5 = 3L, of which 2L goes into the Nova and leaving 1L for topping up. Theoretically topping up should be done with the developer made up without the bromide, since the bromide level increases with use, but I find that making it all up with bromide causes no problems.

It's a very good developer for the Nova, since it seems to last for a long time. It works well even when it's a disgusting colour.

My current batch has some EDTA4Na in it, since a formula on APUG which was supposed to be Neutol-WA had it, and I thought it might help. It made the stock absolutely colourless instead of a bit pink, but diluted in use I'm not sure if it's made any difference. I've had some in the Nova since the 4th of January, used a bit for a couple of days then just covered with plastic wrap. I'll test it in the next couple of days to see if it's still full strength.

John, Ilford have very quietly switched over recent years from using Phenidone to the Phenidone variant also known as Dimezone S in their PQ based liquid developers and there's no difference in the quality of the developer or final prints, and the solutions behave exactly the same. So switching to Dimezone-S if you have it is a good option.

I haven't had any problem dissolving the large quantity of Sodium Carbonate in my concentrated version, but Potassium Carbonate is as you say more soluble.

Ian

Ian Grant said:

I've been using this formula for about 25 years, alongside using Neutol WA, and the results\are indistinguishable.

Click to expand...

I would agree with Ian. I made up some ID78 and I must say it's a pretty good substitute for Neutol WA. It's not (IMO) as warm as Harman Warmtone but it got a better working life. I'm using at 1+3 but such is the D-max, I reckon 1+4 or even 1+5 might even be do-able. I've attached a thumnail of a recent print (Ilford warm FB in ID-78 at 1+3). Apologies for the crap scan, it doesn't really give a good impression of the print tone.

Ian Grant said:

Concentrated Stock Solution ID-78.....
Phenidone 1.25 g 18.75 g

Click to expand...

Maybe I'm mis-reading something but shouldn't the amount of phenidone in the 5 Litre Concentrated version be a bit lower?

If my calcs for the proportions, based upon strengthening the originalID-78 formula by 2.5X , are correct, it should be 6.25 g to maintain the proportions in the original formula.

Thus:
Concentrated Stock Solution ID-78

Water 125 F 750 ml 3750 ml
Sodium Sulphite (anh) 125 g 625 g
Hydroquinone 30 g 150 g
Sodium Carbonate (anh) 155 g 775 g
Phenidone 1.25 g 6.25 g
Potassium Bromide 11.25 g 56.25 g
Water to 1 litre 5 litres

Please let me know if I am missing something.

C

Neutol WA works pretty effectively on Azo. I haven't tried ID-78—anybody?

jmcd said:

Neutol WA works pretty effectively on Azo. I haven't tried ID-78—anybody?

Click to expand...

Yes, I've found that ID-78 works great with Azo.

Would there be any benefit in using ID-78 on Ilford MG (non warm tone) or idsthis developer tailored to warm tone papers exclusively?

On the same note: when using ID-78 on Ilford WT, will the tone be more warmer than the subtle tone of WT in a regular developer?

Thanks,

Cor

Cor, your quite right I made an error, the Phenidone in 1litre of Concentrate is 1.25g and in 5 litres 6.25g. I cut and pasted from a web page and didn't spot the mistake.

Concentrated Stock Solution ID-78

Sodium Sulphite (anh) 125 g 625 g
Hydroquinone 30 g 150 g
Sodium Carbonate (anh) 155 g 775 g
Phenidone 1.25 g 6.25 g
Potassium Bromide 11.25 g 56.25 g
Water to 1 litre 5 litres

Use 1+9

Ian

Cor, ID-78 will work fine with a normal paper, but will give far warmer tones with Ilford WT than a regular developer. Remember it is possible to increase the warmth with exposure & development time as well, but only with Warm tone chloro-bromide papers.

Shorter exposure / Longer development time - Colder tones
Longer Exposure / Shorter Development time (or more dilute developer) - Warmer Tones

Ian

Cor said:

Would there be any benefit in using ID-78 on Ilford MG (non warm tone) or idsthis developer tailored to warm tone papers exclusively?

On the same note: when using ID-78 on Ilford WT, will the tone be more warmer than the subtle tone of WT in a regular developer?

Thanks,

Cor

Click to expand...

I use it for everything, because I use a Nova processor and changing developers is inconvenient. I'm still using my Agfa fibre paper(MCC) and it does make it slightly warmer (which I like).

When I start using Ilford fibre Multigrade (because of availability) I'm guessing that the warming might be somewhat less.

ID-78 / Neutol WA Replacement

Neutol WA Replacement

I've revive this thread in light of recent reading.
In a 1972 patent Ilford disclose a PQ Developer for an Ilfospeed type developer and instead of Sodium carbonate they use Potassium carbonate and Sodium Hydroxide. In fact there are two formulae listed in the Patent and one, the standard type developer used for comparison, is essentially a re-working of the earlier ID-62 formula. ID-78 is the warm tone variant of ID-62 with increased bromide and no Benzotriazole.

Where ID-62 uses 60gms Sodiun Carbonate, the developer in the Patent uses 38.3 gms of Potassium Carbonate and 2.12 gms of Sodium Hydroxide. Neutol WA uses even less carbonate and more hydroxide. When you start comparing this to the the published formula for Neutol WAfrom: Foto & Labor, 3/ 1996, page 17, which is referenced to in the (there was a url link here which no longer exists), it become very obvious that the major difference between the formula for ID-78 and Neutol WA is the alkali.

When I divided the quantities in the Published Neutol WA formula by 3.75 and cross checked against ID-78 this was what I actually found:

ID-78

Sodium Sulphite 50 g
Hydroquinone 12 g
Phenidone 0.5 g
Sodium Carbonate 62 g
Potassium Bromide 4.5 g
Water to 1 litre

Neutol WA

Potassium Sulphite 60 g - this is equivalent to 48 g Sodium Sulphite
Hydroquinone 12 g
Phenidone 0.4 g
Potassium Carbonate 12 g
Potasium Hydroxide 4 g
Potassium Bromide 2.67 g
Water to 1 litre

Not so very different after all

Many commercial liquid developers now use Potassium Carbonate and Potassium or Sodium Hydroxide in place of Sodium Carbonate for economic reasons, as it reduces the cost, and also improves overall solubility.

Ian