ICG 365 drum scanner

[erikhatt]

This is just a shot in the dark, but i have hope.

Is there any experts on ICG scanners here. I have an ICG 365 and i have balancing problems. It wont balance. Maybe after 2 or 3 apertures, it makes a sound and the put this text up on screen. Error Balancing problem. I have contacted icg, the just told me to uograde from scanexact 9,5 to 10. Price 7000 GBP.

I scan mostly psitive transparancyes and now using "no balancing befre scan" i hope that im not scanning on widest aperture all the time. Hope somebody have knowledge on this subject.

 

[imazursky]

First try the Dead Link Removed.
Another option is to do a clean install of the scanner software on a clean computer. But check with the guys on the forum. They are the experts.

 

[Bruce Watson]

Is there any experts on ICG scanners here. I have an ICG 365 and i have balancing problems. It wont balance. Maybe after 2 or 3 apertures, it makes a sound and the put this text up on screen. Error Balancing problem.

Please define for me what you mean by "after 2 or 3 apertures." The aperture is the highly accurately sized hole that the scanner shines its light through -- it defines the "spot" size for the scanning operation. So I don't understand what you mean by "after 2 or 3 apertures." It sounds like what you mean is after 2 or 3 successful scans you get an error message. Is that it?

Second, what is the complete text of the error message? I'm asking because "balance problem" could refer to color balance, which would be a software problem, or drum balance which would be a mechanical problem.

Since you say the error message is accompanied with a sound, I'm inclined to think it's a mechanical problem. If that's true, and the drum is out of balance, give the drum a good inspection, particularly the base that mounts into the scanner. The flat parts must be perfectly clean and free of debris. For example, I found a sticker on such a surface of a drum I bought, so thin that you would have thought it would be negligible. But when install in the scanner and spun up to full speed it created quite a vibration -- the drum was truly out of balance. Removal of the sticker "cured" the problem.

So, first thing to do is determine what kind of balance problem you have. If it's mechanical, clean the base of the drum and the mating parts in the scanner to make sure that the drum lines up precisely where it should when installed in the scanner.

 

[erikhatt]

Please define for me what you mean by "after 2 or 3 apertures." The aperture is the highly accurately sized hole that the scanner shines its light through -- it defines the "spot" size for the scanning operation. So I don't understand what you mean by "after 2 or 3 apertures." It sounds like what you mean is after 2 or 3 successful scans you get an error message. Is that it?

Second, what is the complete text of the error message? I'm asking because "balance problem" could refer to color balance, which would be a software problem, or drum balance which would be a mechanical problem.

Since you say the error message is accompanied with a sound, I'm inclined to think it's a mechanical problem. If that's true, and the drum is out of balance, give the drum a good inspection, particularly the base that mounts into the scanner. The flat parts must be perfectly clean and free of debris. For example, I found a sticker on such a surface of a drum I bought, so thin that you would have thought it would be negligible. But when install in the scanner and spun up to full speed it created quite a vibration -- the drum was truly out of balance. Removal of the sticker "cured" the problem.

So, first thing to do is determine what kind of balance problem you have. If it's mechanical, clean the base of the drum and the mating parts in the scanner to make sure that the drum lines up precisely where it should when installed in the scanner.

Its not the physical balance, but the aperture balance. First i set default balancepoint on a blank place on the external A3+ drum or i set a balancepoint for the individual scan. Then i go to scan and balancing apertures. I start but it comes an error message when it starts on aperture 1. It says: Scanner error- Failure during balancing operation.

This happens with both trensmission and reflection. Earlyer it stopped on aperture 4 or 6 but the ten last times, its stops on aperture 1.

I have tried to move the balance point to many different places on the drum

 

[Bruce Watson]

Its not the physical balance, but the aperture balance. First i set default balancepoint on a blank place on the external A3+ drum or i set a balancepoint for the individual scan. Then i go to scan and balancing apertures.

Yeah. I don't have any idea what an "aperture balance" might be. That's not "standard" drum scanner stuff; it's specific to ICG hardware/software. I don't have any direct experience with running an ICG scanner, so I can't help you with specifics. Sorry.

Try the yahoo group ScanHi-End. There are some ICG scanner operators there. Maybe one of them will step up to help you.

 

[imazursky]

If ICG said to upgrade just the software, i would wipe the machine, reinstall the OS and then the scanner software.

If it is the software, then it sounds like something is corrupted...somewhere.
Also check your scsi cables, card, termination and id's. You never know.

 

[Serg Lavrenchuk]

We are funning with our ICG 330i scanner for a whole week now (12H a day). So I have answers and questions.

ICG scanner is made in such a way that before every scan light intensity is measured on the aperture that would be used for the present scan.
Out 330 have 8 apertures. As I see some models have 9... (or maybe more).

Q: Aperture = hole/window cut in the metal wheel. I couldn't find specifications for the size of ICG aperture sizes in mkm. Please help if somebody know.

When light is measured scanner check if those levels are enough for the scan. If the light level is not good = you see Balance error.

You could ask to balance all the apertures in a raw. If you have balance error after AP 2-3 = you have too less light coming to PMTs (photo.multiplying tubes) starting from that AP and lower.
The first thing you could check - lamp (change it). It never helps.. Cause old lamp usually appears better than newer I tend to explain that due to bunting filament is thinner and emits more before dying.

The best thing you could do - clean optics. It always helps... to some extent. Just cleaning the font lens helped this time to go from 280 to 334 in Blue (HEX, not decimal) light level for the AP 8. +30% light.

As I understand ICG advice to have about 480 in that B channel for good scanner. Another way it would have lower dynamic D range (but would work).

Also as I understand PMTs in the scanner are subj to degradation. I have been asking about that service guy and got advice to look for CLAMP (= heat current / dark current) on PMT. Closer you get to the end - the more PMT would show CLAMP.
In ICG clamp is measured just before measuring balance. You see it in the same PC Monitor window.
From our experimentation we found that as soon clamp would reach 680 (HEX units) at any of R G B channels you would end up with "CLAMP ERROR" and not going any further.

So check your CLAMP on its way to 680..


Q: I can't get the answer yet from ICG on the PMTs life cycle in the scanner. Are they subj to change and what is the marker for that.
I have got an answer from serviceman "never ever go to PMT, if they are off - you throw the scanner to trash and go to find another one. they are unique and are calibrated to PCB on the factory".
What is feel from looking inside - that is not that bad.

In our 330i machine, we have 3x Hamamatsu R1546 PMT

R1546
Multialkali photocathode,
wide spectral response
550U
185-850
530
M
u
o
CC/9
E678-1 1 H
1000
0.01
50
80

Looks like they are not produced and even they substitute are not produced either. I have found that some were sold recently in 3 on ebay (quess why 3x .
Got request to Hamamatsu for the substitute but was reconnected to some dealer asking me why and what for I need them.

Our machine is from 1996 and is 22 year old now. At the moment it has balance EHT (light) 334 in B (the lowest from R G B due to spectrum of H3 55w lamp).
CLAMP is 5d0-5c0.

As I think now the best that could be done for the machine is to clean all the mirrors and optics in it. We still hesitate if we should do it without any tech docs of "how to" if things go little bit complicated.
We have a service guy in our city even... but he does not wish to clean optics at our place and we do not happy about dragging of about 100kg machine to another part of the city.


Q: maybe somebody has any exp. with changing or playing around with PMTs in these scanners. Please advise how you deal with them. What is a substitute for Hamamatsu R1546 PMT?


55W H3 regular auto lamp used in ICG is less than 55W when in the machine. We measured it about 49W (12V 4.07-4.10A).
Also, we found that ICG Drum scanner use the second set of apertures that are installed close to lamp mostly for regulation of lamp intensity not to give too much light for the AP 1 - at R. Its DAC is 12 bit.
That is max 4096 levels of light. We noticed that AP1 on R is never more than 3200-3250 (DEC) with CLAMP of about 1500. I am not sure that CLAMP is in the same power as balance EHT
but very easy to assume that machine try not to overcome EHT+CLAMP = 4096. If it does - it just reduces lamp output by next smaller aperture on the lower ap.wheel.

In the same time for AP 8 hole size is so small that actual size of the lower aperture does not change balance EHT too much.

From that came a decision to try h3 lamp with more light output. Extra light for AP 1 machine would cut down by lower ap. And AP 8 would get more light at B channel.
Such a lamp was found as Osram h3 with 4.25A on 12V instead of 4.1A for regular. At our 330i machine we have 75W 12V power unit that runs both H3lamp+700V (12V in, 350mA) PMTs power supply.
That theoretically gives some play with +extra W for the lamp.

So PMTs are actually working on 700V gain, but if you wish to make some research (burn some PCB or make yourself heart attack) you could take off power unit and find inside trimmer to adj.lamp V.
We have found that adding V to 726V gives so much dark currenct that with heat up PMTs scanner comes to the CLAMP ERROR. Reducing V to some 680V actually reduced CLAMP and added some signal
(looks like on the same amount of reduced CLMP = maybe 5 to 15 EHT depending on the R G B ). Changing lamp to one that is +5% A added light at AP8 in B to 420HEX (1056DEC).

Q: How ICG determine White and Black and gray balance for transmission light I still do not understand. Could somebody help with an explanation?
Just comparing with Durst Closed-loop systems enlargers I tend to think that is just proportionally counting on light with a defined ratio or R to G to B in the light of some 2900K light.
What is bad about that theory - as soon your actual balance goes out of ideal ratio you get problems with colour shifts between RGB channels in colour image.


Dear Santa, we were good boys all these years fixing Durst enlargers, LightJet printers, Polieletronica printes, Hostert Processors...etc... and so tired of doing that...
ICG have in PC monitor service menu that is under passw. If some Santa knows it and could PM I would be very happy. If some Santa have any tech docs to our ICG machine and could PM I would be 12bit happy.

 

[nbagno]

You can still buy the PMT's new. Just over $300 new from Hamamatsu.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

You can still buy the PMT's new. Just over $300 new from Hamamatsu.

I'm glad I'm not scanning.

 

[nbagno]

I'm glad I'm not scanning.

It's a way of life

 

[Serg Lavrenchuk]

If any ICG user would have this issue with density change during scan our exp. might help.

We had a problem with a different density over scans. Sometimes one (splitting file in halves), sometimes few or several of different width. Some scans were ok. During the beginning of the day more, scans were ok.

Looked like some scanner parameters drops during scan time. Usually, strips were closer to the second part of the scan. We were looking for voltage drops or peaks but could not see any. The lamp was changed once.
Problem left, so the lamp was excluded (even results clearly looked like lamp power fluctuation).

We were looking for vibration, rotation or lost of rotation sync. Also came to the idea that ADC elements on the board generate that fluctuation of RGB levels.

Then during a conversation with a guy selling oscilloscopes and measuring equipment, he told that it looks like lamp having fluctuation due to filament turns to get some shorts due to burning products formation and heating/bending.

I told that the lamp was new and he advised that sometimes new have this effect from the store. He strongly advised trying a few more new ones.

After putting one more lamp of the same brand bought at the same gas station problem disappeared.
We also tried some lamps made by Philips that are in the same body but with 75W output with a blue filter (colored glass).
This help to make more light and to bend light EHT on RGB sensors more to the specifications,
but in about few hours (1-2 scans) lams start to make density steps (filament start to overheat-bend-make light fluctuations). So this lamp 10 USD priced last for about 2 scans.

 

[Carson King]

Hi Serg,
How is your ICG 365 running? Are you still having issues?

Carson

 

[yeolde]

have the 330 for sale