I want more film speed with Rodinal

Akki14: Based on your example, I can't believe it's 3200. It's probably overexposed to 1600.

Why be so stuck with Rodinal? Have you tried full-speed developers? Microphen? DD-X (liquid concentrate) Xtol? PC-TEA (liquid concentrate, not for pushing, it sucks for that)?

strangepics said:

Why be so stuck with Rodinal? Have you tried full-speed developers? Microphen? DD-X (liquid concentrate) Xtol? PC-TEA (liquid concentrate, not for pushing, it sucks for that)?

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Xtol is my other main developer and I can easily get full speed out of Neopan 400 with it. But I used Rodinal in the past and remembered how much I just loved the tonality and enhanced accutance, but had to shoot everything at at least 1/2 the ISO. So I'm just looking for a way to use Rodinal for those reasons but at full box speed.

BTW... I shot a roll of Neopan 400 this weekend at EI400 and developed in Rodinal 1:50 for 12min. agitation continuous for first min. then two inversions every 3 minutes and the negatives came out great. Good shadow detail. I'm still experimenting though.

brian steinberger said:

It seems to be that to achieve full film speed with Rodinal you need to reduce agitation and extend development time. I'm going to start some tests today to see what I can come up with. My results with Rodinal 1:50 will be compared to Xtol 1:1 that I have been using previously with Neopan 400.

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The function of increased film speed and the impression of increased sharpness is not so much reducing agitation and extending the development time as it is the function of the developer becoming exhausted.

Only after the developer is exhausted will you begin to realize the full effect of the "reduced agitation" technique.

A general starting point for most "Non Sulfite" developers is 1/2 of normal strength. Sodium sulfite has the negative effect of prolonging developer activity as well promoting silver migration, both enemies of the "reduced agitation" technique.

Cheers!

Steve Sherman said:

The function of increased film speed and the impression of increased sharpness is not so much reducing agitation and extending the development time as it is the function of the developer becoming exhausted.

Only after the developer is exhausted will you begin to realize the full effect of the "reduced agitation" technique.

A general starting point for most "Non Sulfite" developers is 1/2 of normal strength. Sodium sulfite has the negative effect of prolonging developer activity as well promoting silver migration, both enemies of the "reduced agitation" technique.

Cheers!

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Steve,

Are you suggesting that I use Rodinal at the dilution of 1:100 as opposed to 1:50? How would this change my times and agitation? I develop in a 500ml tank for one roll of 120. What's the minimum amount of stock Rodinal that I need per roll?

brian steinberger said:

Steve,

Are you suggesting that I use Rodinal at the dilution of 1:100 as opposed to 1:50? How would this change my times and agitation? I develop in a 500ml tank for one roll of 120. What's the minimum amount of stock Rodinal that I need per roll?

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Hi Brian,

Although I have never used Rodinal, I have a good friend who uses Rodinal with roll film at a dilution of 1:100 in a semi-stand type process and gets very nice results.

A minimum amount of working dev. is necessary, that is to say do not reduce the formula down to one 16oz tank for one roll of 120 film, there is just not enough developer in solution to maintain adequate levels of reducing agent. I would say a minimum of 30 ozs.

While I have not done any roll film with "Reduced Agitation" I have done a far amount of sheet film and have arrived at a regime of two agitation periods. I vary the times and dilutions according to the original scene which usually varies each time.

Remember one thing, because this technique maximizes film speed overexposure can lead to tonalities being too far up the straight line leaving no deep dark values which establish relationships throughout the negative.

Rodinal is not readily available so you may want to do some tests to see if you can uses less solution than previously thought.

Steve Sherman said:

Rodinal is not readily available ....

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Not so:

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/sc_prod.php?cat_id=&pid=4697

RFXB

I just love the standard developer advertizing: "Rodinal is a classic developer--some would say the classic developer--that features fine grain and high acutance"

_fine grain_??

Rolleiflexible said:

Not so:


RFXB

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Right you are, recently heard Rodinal was going the way of most treasured things from the Traditional era.

That said, several years ago I spent about $60.00 on raw Pyrocat HD chemicals, that $60.00 investment will last at least another several years. This with the volume necessary to process 7x17 film one at a time.

And let's not get into the debate about pyro based developers.

Cheers

IIRC, Rodinal instructions variously mention something like 5 to 10 ml of concentrate per roll of 35mm, 120, or 8x10 sheet. In discussions among users, I've often seen 3 ml per roll mentioned as a very practical minimum, and I've been using it that way for 30 years. So 5ml in your 500ml rollfilm tank would be sufficient for a roll of 120.

Rodinal is available locally for me. I don't know about any announcement by A&O that would indicate that Rodinal is discontinued again.

The Massive Development Chart at digitaltruth.com has many times listed for Rodinal 1:100. That dilution had long been in common usage when I learned about it decades ago. APUG also has many posts on Rodinal at 1:100 with various films.

Rodinal will show you whatever grain is inherent in the film, and won't etch or smooth it with solvent activity.

Lee

strangepics said:

I just love the standard developer advertizing: "Rodinal is a classic developer--some would say the classic developer--that features fine grain and high acutance"

_fine grain_??

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Surprisingly yes, with modern T-grain films and the Ilford & Agfa equivalents Rodinal does actually produce remarkably fine grain. Some of the best 35mm work I've seen has been shot on AP100/APX100 & Tmax100 processed in Rodinal.

Ian

Is Too

Fine Grain traditionally refers to the ability to resolve the film's native granularity, cleanly and regularly. The term has never meant grain suppression. Precisely, SEMI Fine Grain developers are a range of developers like Rodinal or D-76, good for multiple purposes, that deliver a normal range of tonality, normal speeds, and posses individual qualities that lend each to a photographer's vision.

'EXTREMELY fine grain' developers sacrifice flexibility for the finest possible grain. The cost is usually 2 stops less shadow speed than a negative made by Ilford DD, for instance, and these developers have lost popularity in the past 25 years. The only commonly used developers in this category are Microdol-X and Perceptol, minor variations of the same formula. The improvement of films over the past several decades have made most of the old developers pointless.

SOME developers which fall between the Semi Fine and Extremely Fine categories are used by some photographers for specific needs, usually for a particular quality other than their grain rendition.



Most photographers favor a balanced performance, and some use Rodinal either for a slightly grittier view of reality, although the classic approach takes advantage of Rodinal's ability to render cleanly separated highlights which are controllable by variations in agitation. Pyrocat is a similar developer, as is FX-1. One of the troublesome aspects of the past 20 - 30 years of photographic practice has been a methodological conformity which has imposed a religious ideology that film must be agitated every 30 seconds, regardless of the film and developer. The premise that all developers behave as do D-76 is a flaw powered by a remorseless logic that is responsible for the sale of expensive processing machines and killing, visual conformity of images. The rediscovery by King, and Sherman, and other photographers, that some developers can be effective fine grain developers with special TONAL characteristics is as important as any other event in photography. Their work demonstrates the maxim that How is often more important then WHAT.

I remember countless studies done in the '70s and '80s which compared the variations of D-76 to find which was the 'best developer-of-all-time-for-everybody-everywhere'. Stupid then, stupid now. Sold lots of magazines.

Sometimes we need to look away from our own craft for the perspective to understand what we are doing. Woodworking does the trick for me.

Some woodworkers prefer a sanded, and machined finish, smooth as glass. Some like a finish made by a blade. Some insist on quarter-sawn oak, others make fine work from pine. Some use hand tools, others have every power tool ever made. A good woodworker, however, is defined by the quality of the work, not by the tool or the material. Some passionate image makers are dogmatic that only a contact print is real photography, others make rare images from fast film and small cameras. Some are inspired by slow, ultra fine grain films which require special purpose developers, and have no room for error. We all must find the balance someplace, and do the best work we can.

It is Perspective that makes this possible. Stepping back is the only way to gain perspective. With perspective comes the understanding that only two things are essential to remember:

Good pictures can be made by any process.

Rodinal IS a fine grain developer.

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