I want more film speed with Rodinal

I'm getting ready to mess around with Rodinal some more. I have used it in the past but didn't like it because I always had to cut my EI in half. I shoot handheld a lot, and shooting a 400 speed film at EI200 does affect this for certain scenes.

But I loved the tonality. My question is how can I get full film speed out of a film with Rodinal? I'm going to be using Neopan 400 and maybe some Tri-x. I've heard the trick of adding sodium sulfite, but I've also heard that doing so cuts down on some of the accutance. So I don't want to do that.

What about semi-stand? I understand how that works to boost the shadow detail while holding back the highlights. Any users of this technique getting full film speed or higher with their respective films? What about agitation cycles and dilutions? I plan on using 1:50.

Thanks for the help!

BTW.. I'm shooting MF rangefinders.

Semi-stand would probably work. I'm not sure I would go beyond 1+100.

If not, add a splash of xtol.

No, really.

Why don't you try HP5+ which is about 1 stop faster than Tri-X?

David, actually Xtol is my main developer right now. I've heard about people mixing the two. Any more info on this?

Jim, You've found HP5 to be faster in your testing?

brian steinberger said:

I'm getting ready to mess around with Rodinal some more. I have used it in the past but didn't like it because I always had to cut my EI in half. I shoot handheld a lot, and shooting a 400 speed film at EI200 does affect this for certain scenes.

But I loved the tonality. My question is how can I get full film speed out of a film with Rodinal? I'm going to be using Neopan 400 and maybe some Tri-x. I've heard the trick of adding sodium sulfite, but I've also heard that doing so cuts down on some of the accutance. So I don't want to do that.

What about semi-stand? I understand how that works to boost the shadow detail while holding back the highlights. Any users of this technique getting full film speed or higher with their respective films? What about agitation cycles and dilutions? I plan on using 1:50.

Thanks for the help!

BTW.. I'm shooting MF rangefinders.

Click to expand...

If you want to get more speed from TRI-X 320 semi-stand, either with Rodinal or Pyrocat-HD, might do it.

Another suggestion for TRI-X 320 is to use a two-bath developer like Diafine or divided D-23 or D-76. Two-bath development gives a very straight line curve with this film, which effectively gives you box speed, instead of the EFS of 160 at which most people use it.

Sandy King

You can also use a spot meter.

Rodinal, with conventional agitation, has less shadow speed than D76. Just does,

BUT if you reduce the agitation to 5 seconds every fifth minute, you squeeze more shadow speed out, and the highlights are held back. I am a portraitist, so I base exposure on midtones. I use EI 400, and get all the shadows Rodinal can deliver. It is a noticeable difference from conventional agitation, but not at all D76. Try it, and see how you like it. Fourteen to 20 minutes is a good range, depending on your enlarger, paper, and taste.

Shoot a roll at 400, based on midtones, and develop a strip. When you get a negative that contact prints the midtone you like, that's it. Then shoot some film to see whether you like it. Strong blacks, good, rich shadows, and long highlights. You can get very gutsy midtones, and subtle, radiant highlights, but you need to print with a middle contrast developer like LPD on Ilford MG. Dektol is too hot. Selectol Soft will be a very comfortable developer for this stuff.

Using extra sodium sulfite is really a cat of a different color, driving the highlights through the ceiling, dazzling, great for a deadflat day, but not at all the same, 'rodinal' look.

I shoot Neopan 400 @400 developing in Rodinal 1/50 for 12min agitating the first min and then 10sec every three min. I don't find I'm loosing speed that way.
Kind regards

I've done stand development with Rodinal for an hour at 1+200 (make sure you have enough chemistry per square inch of film). Turned out great at box speed. I used Neopan 400 and Kodak Tri-X 400. Serious compensating effects, and a softer look than normal.
I've seen it done with 1+300 too but those weren't shots intended for great shadow detail to begin with, so I can't say how they did tonally.

Hm. Odd. I push process with Rodinal without too much difficulty. Most recently did a 120 roll of Tri-X 400 pushed to EI 3200, 1+50 dilution "minimal agitation" for 30minutes as recommended on massive dev chart. I translated that as 1min initial agitation then one inversion every 5 minutes after that.
Not too bad for shadow detail.

Patrick Gainer recommends trying 4 grams/liter of sodium ascorbate added to Rodinal 1:50. This will increase activity to the point of achieving box speed, about a stop more than Rodinal alone, but it will lessen apparent graininess. I've tried this on a couple of rolls at 2 grams/liter sodium ascorbate added to Rodinal 1:100 with results that appear to confirm Gainer's. The original article was called Salt to Taste, in Photo Techniques.

Some of the info from that article and subsequent ideas are at http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Rodinal/rodinal.html

Sodium ascorbate is a form of Vitamin C, and is readily available in some parts of the world.

Lee

Xtol is modern and excellent, Rodinal old-fashioned and creates a lot of grain with Tri-X and similar films. If you have XTol and want more "Rodinal style", did you consider diluting it? You get more than enough speed then, and a little more grain.

Lee L said:

Patrick Gainer recommends trying 4 grams/liter of sodium ascorbate added to Rodinal 1:50.
Lee

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Sodium Sulfite radically affects the highlights of the curve.

Does Ascorbate change the curve ?

df cardwell said:

BUT if you reduce the agitation to 5 seconds every fifth minute, you squeeze more shadow speed out, and the highlights are held back. Fourteen to 20 minutes is a good range, depending on your enlarger, paper, and taste.

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DF - is this at 1:50?
I'm interested to try it.

I'm no big fan of Rodinal for Tri-X or other fast films. While Mr. Cardwell is getting the results he wants from it, he is probably doing so with exposures made under controlled lighting. This is quite a different situation from outdoor candid and street photography. I'm very sceptical about minimal agitation as well. More than once I've been burned when employing that technique. There is a greater risk of producing unevenly developed negatives this way. XTOL or D-76 will give you much better shadow densities with faster films. All things considered, the negatives should be easier to print and yield more information. How much of that information you use can be your choice at the printing stage. Akki14's posted example illustrates the down side of pushing with Rodinal almost perfectly. All the shadows are dead black with no detail at all. I don't know if there are any shadow details in the negative, but I'd bet money that there isn't much.

df cardwell said:

Sodium Sulfite radically affects the highlights of the curve.

Does Ascorbate change the curve ?

Click to expand...

Don,

I haven't done any controlled testing against a known standard, and most of my tests were with slower Efke 25 and 50 films, with which I don't have long experience. I also tried Rodinal + sodium ascorbate with HP5+, again with little prior use of HP5+. So I don't have a real basis for answering your question.

I used to use (70's and early 80's) a lot of Panatomic-X with Rodinal 1:100 + sodium sulfite @ 45 grams/liter, but that film's no longer available for checking relative film curves. I also tend to use semi-stand and higher dilutions, which as you know, also affects the highlights and speed point. My time shooting and in the darkroom is limited these days because of other obligations, so I tend to shoot and "test" at the same time, and I've been using a variety of faster films recently, and trying other developers, so haven't gotten a strong overall 'feel' for the Rodinal + sodium ascorbate combo.

It might help to know that I used the development times for Rodinal 1:50 as a starting point when adding sodium ascorbate to the 1:100 dilution in the proportions suggested by Gainer, which was reasonably close. I used 5sec in 30sec agitation for a couple of rolls and semi-stand for another couple of rolls.

I'll try a test when I can, but I have a long delayed date with some pyro developers before they die, and Rodinal is patient.

Lee

Soeren said:

I shoot Neopan 400 @400 developing in Rodinal 1/50 for 12min agitating the first min and then 10sec every three min. I don't find I'm loosing speed that way.
Kind regards

Click to expand...

Soeren,

What is your agitation like for the first minute? And how many inversions for the 10sec. every minute? Are you shooting 35mm or 120? I think I'm going to give this a try. Thanks!

Brian

There are any number of developers which will easily give box speed with Tri-X. The first step is proper metering. Any of the developers which contain phenidone will give box speed or more. These include Microphen, UFG, Acufine, FG-7, X-tol, NACCO Super 76, Clayton F60, PC-TEA and others. If you don't mind some extra grain and need the speed I would recommend undiluted Microphen or Clayton F60 at 1:9. You can rate Tri-X at any speed you like and develop it in Rodinal but the shadow detail will be missing. I think Rodinal is interesting developer with slow films but I donlt like the way it works with fast films and I don't find it well suited to pushing.

I don't find it well suited to pushing

I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but changing the amount of agitation in relation to the development time
affects the shape of the curve. It DOES. Rodinal, and the old Agfa #3 (diluted metol carbonate) later famous as Beutler's, both give up shadow speed to D76 because they lack the sulfite magic of D-76 (see Troop) when they are agitated constantly, or at half-minute intervals. But reduce the agitation, and increase the time, and it works.

Take almost any carbonate developer without super-additive developers, and it works. FX-1 is a great example, so is Pyrocat. I think Sandy King doesn't go beyond 3 ' intervals, and that is great with Rodinal. It ISN'T a push, PUSHING refers to the old technique of increasing the development time to build midtones and highlights to compensate for the need of a faster speed film than is available. Goodness knows I pushed my share of Tri X in the '60s and '70s, when I needed 1250 and beyond. But I used Rodinal most of the time, and even with a PUSH, I got a normal shaped curve at a higher speed than with D76. Having sharp grain was a good trade, for I never had to burn in highlights ... unlike the D76, Acufine, Boiling Dektol Guys.

Extending Rodinal's 1+50 time from 12 to 14', while using 25% the normal agitation, gives Tri-X full box speed at Zone 1 1/2, normal density at Zone V, and a curve shape similar to D76. It doesn't build abnormal contrast, so it is NOT a push. You sacrifice a small density step at the base of the shadows which enriches the blacks in the same way selenium toning would. This is often perceived as a micro-contrast boost, which some people find pleasant.

As for grain, don't try to predict what happens if you haven't used it. My consistent results are a finer grain than with the unnecessarily higher amount of agitation normally used. If you don't like it, fine. Some folks do.

df, thanks for that post. That sheds a lot of light on what I'm trying to figure out. The truth is, I don't mind grain. But it's not that much of an issue to me. I am shooting MF rangefinders and rarely enlarge larger than 8x10 so it won't be an issue anyway. What I'm after is tonality.

I've heard that reduced agitation is the key to Rodinal. I'm enjoying these responses.

I routinely shoot HP5+ at EI 800 and develop it in Rodinal at 1+22 (actually 45cc in 1000cc). My times are refined for platinum negatives (13m in a drum), but with a bit of experimentation you should find something that does the trick with small film.

It seems to be that to achieve full film speed with Rodinal you need to reduce agitation and extend development time. I'm going to start some tests today to see what I can come up with. My results with Rodinal 1:50 will be compared to Xtol 1:1 that I have been using previously with Neopan 400.

brian steinberger said:

Soeren,

What is your agitation like for the first minute? And how many inversions for the 10sec. every minute? Are you shooting 35mm or 120? I think I'm going to give this a try. Thanks!

Brian

Click to expand...

Hi Brian

My inversion technique? I do 180degree inversions combined with twisting the drum and each inversion from start to end takes about two seconds meaning arond 30 in a minute and 5 in 10 seconds. two seconds sounds fast but itis actually rather slow and it took me a while to get the rythm right. your milage may vary though. I use the same technique for both 35mm and 120 films.
Kind regards
Søren

df cardwell said:

BUT if you reduce the agitation to 5 seconds every fifth minute, you squeeze more shadow speed out, and the highlights are held back. I am a portraitist, so I base exposure on midtones. I use EI 400, and get all the shadows Rodinal can deliver. It is a noticeable difference from conventional agitation, but not at all D76. Try it, and see how you like it. Fourteen to 20 minutes is a good range, depending on your enlarger, paper, and taste.

Click to expand...

I can say from experience that DF Cardwell's technique here works very well, as he suggested it to me about a year ago and it's now in my bag of Rodinal/TX tricks. I did experience noticeably increased edge effects with this technique though, which is expected with the reduced agitation, not a bad thing, just something to be aware of.

df cardwell said:

Rodinal, with conventional agitation, has less shadow speed than D76. Just does,

BUT if you reduce the agitation to 5 seconds every fifth minute, you squeeze more shadow speed out, and the highlights are held back. I am a portraitist, so I base exposure on midtones. I use EI 400, and get all the shadows Rodinal can deliver. It is a noticeable difference from conventional agitation, but not at all D76. Try it, and see how you like it. Fourteen to 20 minutes is a good range, depending on your enlarger, paper, and taste.

Shoot a roll at 400, based on midtones, and develop a strip. When you get a negative that contact prints the midtone you like, that's it. Then shoot some film to see whether you like it. Strong blacks, good, rich shadows, and long highlights. You can get very gutsy midtones, and subtle, radiant highlights, but you need to print with a middle contrast developer like LPD on Ilford MG. Dektol is too hot. Selectol Soft will be a very comfortable developer for this stuff.

Click to expand...

Two questions:

1. What dilution Rodinal for this recipe?

2. What effect does it have on perception of grain?

Many thanks for your help.

RFXB