I want a Leica

OptiKen · May 22, 2015

The more that I shoot rangefinders, the more I like them. And I really like my Feds and Zorkis that are Leica-type clones.
But the more I use them, the more I pine for a Leica imagining smoother operation and better reliability. I have several Russian lenses in LTM and am very happy with the results I get from them so I am thinking that I would like to find a Leica III series, probably a IIIF for flash capabilities.

Realizing that every camera, particularly old cameras, are individuals and vary by how the camera has been used, stored, etc., would I be safe in assuming an average Leica III would give me a more reliable and smoother experience that what I am currently using?

Also, is the III series a good choice? I like the look and small size even though the viewfinder would be much nicer if it were larger. Should I be looking for something in an M series film camera instead? (assuming I could find one I could afford)

I would appreciate input from others who may have gone through the cheap russian to Leica rangefinder experience or from those who have had experience with both M series and IIIs

Thanks in advance.

Ken

klop · May 22, 2015

I went through the same thing(Zorki 4), got a IIIf and built up my set from there...... No regrets......... The cost of the M's isn't worth it to me at this time, maybe in the future I'll take that step.....

Fixcinater · May 22, 2015

I started with a FED 3b (the tall top plate version) and an I-61. Picked up a cheap Canon VT and went on from there through other Canons and now an M3.

If I lost all my RFs today, tomorrow I would go buy a Canon 7 and a 50mm and be done. It doesn't have the same feel as the M3 but in use it is as good or better, depending on how often you need to change film.

pschwart · May 22, 2015

Personally, I think the Canon P or 7 provide a better user experience than a Leica III (bright, single window viewfinders with frame lines, hinged back). With a bit of patience, either one can be found in very good condition for under $200 USD. They are very well-made and mine have been reliable. If you want a Leica, get an M-series, but you will pay dearly in comparison, even for a user in lesser condition. You can use your LTM lenses on an M with an adapter. If you just have to have a Leica, look at the M2, M4, or MP (and maybe an M6).

cuthbert · May 22, 2015

Mmm for quite a lot of aspects the Leica III is a step backward the Soviet rangefinders, that were a mix of Leica and Contax technoloogy: from Leica they took the shutter, from the Contax II and III other ideas like the backcover that allows a quicker loading (and no film cut) but especially the combined rangefinder/viewfinder that Leica didn't have before the M3.

IMO the M is the Leica, other suggestions like the Canon 7s and 50 mm f1.2 are very good indeed.

Richard S. (rich815) · May 22, 2015

The III are wonderful. But the viewfinders quite squinty. (That said I love my IIIf). Many good suggestions on this thread too but unless you get an M you'll always wonder. Buy a good user M2 or M3, the first if you prefer a 35mm lens, (the latter for 50mm). Then enjoy it for all an M brings. Worse case you'll sell it later for about what you paid. I recommend emailing Youxin Ye and tell him you want a user M and he'll look in his pile of fix-up gear, find one in your budget, CLA it for you and you're good to go. That's what I did for my IIIf and M2. No regrets.

Hatchetman · May 22, 2015

I love my Leica III but it is not entirely reliable. Under 30 degrees I get shutter capping. I sent it for CLA. Still getting the capping in cold. Sent it back to repair guy where it is now. Worst case, it is my summer camera. Uncoated Summitar from 1939:

Ko.Fe. · May 22, 2015

I would choose my FED-2, which is hardly ever clone of Leica, over any Barnack. In fact, I let IIf go, but have no problems to use FED-2. For decades, same camera. I used it one week ago, with Jupiter-3, in fact.
It is not the Leica, it is simple, nothing to be broke, elegant RF camera. Some people likes Zorki-4 to
If you want to grow from FSU RF the only way is film M Leicas.
Barnacks have very good build, but here are multiple reason why they came with M series and why LTMs are cheap now.
You could try to fool your self with old Contax and Canon, not so old Nikons and Zeiss or modern Bessas. But M film Leicas are the only special ones among RFs.

jimjm · May 22, 2015

Like others have mentioned, the Canon LTM bodies like the 7 or P will give you more bang for your buck than a III-series Leica, for about the same price. I love my IIIF, built like a jewel and the quality is undeniable, but Canons aren't too far behind. Leica will be a big step up from your FSU cameras, as will the Canons.

I have a Canon P and it's advantages over the IIIF are: lever wind and rewind, hinged backdoor film loading, combined VF/RF, bigger and brighter VF, 35/50/100 framelines, one dial for fast and slow speeds, metal shutter curtains.

The Leica has a bit more solid build, it's smaller and looks more retro, if that's important to you. If I had to pick just one, it would be the Canon P since it has more convenient features and is a bit quicker (for me) to shoot.

The M-series Leicas are a whole other step above the LTM Leicas or Canons. The viewfinder in my M2 is my favorite of any camera I've used, and the best in an RF camera except for maybe a Zeiss Ikon ($$$) or Nikon SP ($$$$$$). M-series bodies will be 2 or 3 times the cost the Leica III or Canons, but if it's been recently serviced, any of these will be reliable for years. Like Richard mentioned, see what Youxin's got in stock - he services Leica and Canon and is great to deal with.

Good luck and let the GAS begin!

Patrick Robert James · May 22, 2015

If you already have lenses for the Russian cameras then getting a Canon 7 is a no brainer since it is one of the best RFs ever made. I regret selling the one I had. I would buy another in a heartbeat but all my lenses are now M mount. I have an M3 and a Hexar RF and have used a bunch of others. If you have the cash then it is hard to argue against getting an M2 or an M4. Skip the M3 unless all you use is a 50. If you need to economize then skip the Leica screwmounts and get a Canon 7.

trythis · May 22, 2015

Whatever you get prepare to spend $ on a CLA. $200 is not unexpected.

Typos made on a tiny phone...

leicarfcam · May 22, 2015

I actually prefer using my screw Leicas over my M-Leicas. The Canons are fine cameras but be careful when buying since most have wrinkled curtains and while it won't stop the camera it creates wear points if you use it a lot..

Theo Sulphate · May 22, 2015

The only advice I can give beyond what others have written is to actually handle the cameras before you buy. Already having M3's and M6's, I thought I wanted a IIIf -- I discovered I disliked the separate rangefinder a lot. I had a chance to buy the highly praised Nikon SP - and discovered I just didn't like the handling. The Canon 7s was pretty nice for my tastes.

gzinsel · May 22, 2015

I would suggest canon P.

Richard S. (rich815) · May 22, 2015

Funny all the suggestions.

Title of the post: I. Want. A. Leica.

;-)

Xmas · May 22, 2015

The cheapest M is the M4-2 butt ugly...

The Canon bodies and lenses were better for photos no good for posing with don't worry about the metal shutters crinkled.

summicron1 · May 23, 2015

He III series is lovely and fun to use but when I go shooting and don't want to be distracted by the finagling of he things I take my M4 or M3 . And lately it has mostly been the 4 because it is so beat up I don't have to give it a thought. It also loads quicker.

The M costs a bit more but you will never look back. Look at it his way ...a user M costs less than a crappy DSLR.

Pioneer · May 23, 2015

The Leica LTM cameras are very nice. I have several and I enjoy working with them.

As others have said, the viewfinder is a bit squinty but I have never really had any problems.

The cameras, once they are properly serviced, can work with no problems for several years.

I would also recommend the very useful Bessa R since it has a great, modern viewfinder and an in-camera meter.

250swb · May 23, 2015

Seven hours gone and nearly everybody has a better camera than the one the OP is asking about. You don't need to wait until a vaguely approximate thread comes along to advocate your own choices, just start a new thread about 'Canon love' or 'Voigtlander adoration'.

Steve

250swb · May 23, 2015

OptiKen said:
or from those who have had experience with both M series and IIIs

I've not been down the Zorki route Ken but do have Barnack and M Leica's. If you want the easiest shooting experience an M is the way to go. Film loading is faster, one viewfinder for focusing and framing, and they will take all the LTM lenses using cheap adapters. An M2 is perhaps the best of the early M's, with frame lines for 35, 50, and 90mm lenses. But if you want all the frame lines possible an M4-P would be the way to go, if you want a meter as well an M6.

Steve

Xmas · May 23, 2015

250swb said:
Seven hours gone and nearly everybody has a better camera than the one the OP is asking about. You don't need to wait until a vaguely approximate thread comes along to advocate your own choices, just start a new thread about 'Canon love' or 'Voigtlander adoration'.

Steve

Noop the OP asks would it be better.

And the general answer

Not if you are working slow.

Yes if you need fast handling photo journal style a

Lever wind, lever rewind and non rotating shutter dial make big difference.

But there is a canon VL in the for sale in APUG fora with a nice J8 lens, the VL is a low production collector...
No vesting interest

To use a M2 I need to fit a quick load kit and add on lever rewind - the cheapest M is a M4-2, it comes already so fitted out.

georg16nik · May 23, 2015

OptiKen said:
The more that I shoot rangefinders, the more I like them. And I really like my Feds and Zorkis that are Leica-type clones.
But the more I use them, the more I pine for a Leica imagining smoother operation and better reliability. I have several Russian lenses in LTM and am very happy with the results I get from them so I am thinking that I would like to find a Leica III series, probably a IIIF for flash capabilities.

...

Smooth operation is a matter of CLA, teflon lube, thinner shutter curtain material etc.
If you have FED 1, FED 2 and a set of FSU lenses, then a Barnack body or M or the asian exotics won't gain you much.
It's rare to come across reasonably priced IIIx or early M body in acceptably good condition, most samples in transit these days are dogs, RF patch is faded, hazy, worn shutter curtains, inconsistent fast speeds etc.

Leica II or even I hold their age much better, they are after all simpler and conceptually much better though designs, and all brass internally.

horacekenneth · May 23, 2015

I have a 50mm screwmount I wanted a body for and ended up getting a Canon 7 and a Bessa R. I've barely used them, testing them both with film right now. They both feel nice, it's not an easy decision which I'm gonna keep but the Bessa R's viewfinder is pretty sweet. I've never used an ltm leica but I have hard time imagining it would come close and pricewise they're all in the same range.

02Pilot · May 23, 2015

I have gone through the exact progression the OP is considering: from a single Soviet RF (FED-2) to Leica (IIIc), with several intermediate points in between.

My experience went like this: 1) Based on curiosity alone, and having no experience with RFs, I bought a FED-2 with an I-26 from Fedka; 2) Finding that I liked the FED, I began considering more capable (wider range of speeds, better VF) options, and ended up with a Canon P, which I also liked, and later added a second Canon body (an L1); 3) I then started buying LTM lenses in different focal lengths; 4) Finally, I recently acquired my first Leica, a IIIc.

Based on this progression, I'd say that while there is definitely a difference in build quality, this should not be conflated with reliability. A freshly-CLA'd Soviet camera is in all likelihood more reliable than a Leica or Japanese derivative that hasn't been serviced in decades. But a serviced, properly functioning Leica is a mechanical joy to use.

The Canon cameras are more modern in feel and have better viewfinders, modern loading and winding. These things matter when you are shooting a lot and need to reload quickly, and when shooting in poor light, but if you are a casual, methodical photographer, the smaller VF, knob winding, and bottom loading of the Leica don't really intrude. There are additional conveniences with the more modern styles (Canon or M Leica), particularly if you shoot multiple focal lengths; my reason for purchasing the Canon P was to have 35/50/100 framelines available on a trip I was planning so I didn't have to bother with accessory finders.

The biggest advantage of the Leica to my mind is the size. It's tiny, smaller than the FED-2 and considerably smaller than the Canons. With a collapsible lens it fits easily in a pocket, which means I'm more likely to grab it than one of the larger choices. For serious shooting expeditions or travel, where I'll be carrying a camera bag, this is less of a factor.

Whatever you end up doing, budget for a CLA or a camera that has been serviced (unless you can do it yourself). Far better to have one camera that works reliably than a box of cameras you can't trust.

cuthbert · May 23, 2015

Xmas said:
Noop the OP asks would it be better.

And the general answer

Not if you are working slow.

Yes if you need fast handling photo journal style a

Lever wind, lever rewind and non rotating shutter dial make big difference.

But there is a canon VL in the for sale in APUG fora with a nice J8 lens, the VL is a low production collector...
No vesting interest

To use a M2 I need to fit a quick load kit and add on lever rewind - the cheapest M is a M4-2, it comes already so fitted out.

I agree with this comment and all the previous ones: IMO the OP needs a Leica M because let's be honest, a well CLAd Zorki 6 is a better shooter than any III: it has a winding lever, a combined rf/vf (very contrasty, for the II/III there are orange filters that make the rf as contrasty as the zorkis and the FEDs and cost a lot, then the same people who buy them complain about the excessive tint of soviet rfs) and even a open backplate (!!!). I've tried Zorki 1s as smooth as my IIIb but in order to get that level of smoothness you have to spend the same amount of money in CLA than what you would do for the Leica and for a Zorki it's not likely to happen.

The limit of these cameras is that being pre-M rangefinder they need another viewfinder for lenses different than 50mm, here the superiority of Leica Ms and Canons become evident, the 7s does also have an uncouple lightmeter and therefore might be considered one of the most evolved rfs besides the modern Ms (M5, M6 TTL etc...).

I want a Leica

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