I think I'm going mad !!

digiconvert · Jan 20, 2006

Following a very nasty experience with a Flexaret at New Year I persuaded my dear long suffering spouse that I needed a 'REAL' quality camera and got a very nice as new SQ-B with 80mm lens. Took a roll of HP5, developed it and the negs have turned out really thin. Andre R. de Avillez has been really helpful on this but I've tried everal things out and the following are my findings,

-My Weston meter agrees with that on my Canon SLR at iso 400 to within 1/2 a stop (I put my money on the Weston)
-A roll of HP5 processed from cheap TLR in the same tank gave what I would consider to be a good set of negs. Rebates on both sets look OK.
-I have manually timed the shutter at speeds from 8 to 1/4 second and have good correlation .
-The aperture does move when I rotate the bevel (crazy test but needed doing).

It was a dealer purchase (see Flexaret off e-bay!) so I can take it back but I don't want to part with it ! My thoughts are
a) My negs from other cameras are overexposed and the Bronica is actually correct- I need a less powerful bulb in the enlarger (currently 100W in a Meopta opemus 5A)
b)The shutter and/or apperture on the Bronnie are totally shot - given the condition unlikely and I would think BW film would cope with at least 11/2 stops out - a BIG error.
c) I am an incompetent fool who should not be let within 300 yards of delicate photographic equipment (my wife is NOT allowed to vote on this one )

Any other ideas ? Currently the negs need about 2 seconds at f11 - 8 seconds at f 22 is not really where I want to be processing !

Thanks
CJB

argus · Jan 20, 2006

There are two stages for correcting thin negatives when you encounter them on a regular basis an none of them has to do with the enlarger bulb.

- during exposure: the shutter times might be off. You might want to compare your new TLR with the Canon, of which you know it has an accurate shutter. Shoot identical scenes and bracket with the TLR.
Your test of the shutter speeds say nothing yet. Faster shutter speeds will be more prone to error.
- during development: adjust development time.

Adjust one at a time. My guess: it's an in-camera defect.

Are you happy with the 35mm negs? Overexposing is actually better: expose for the shadows is an old mantra that is widely spread

G

Bob F. · Jan 20, 2006

Shoot a roll of an evenly lit brick wall at different shutter speed/aperture combinations with both cameras from 2 seconds and faster at the same EV. You should have a set of identical shots - if not, you can see where the problem occurs.

Cheers, Bob.

gnashings · Jan 20, 2006

argus said:
...- during exposure: the shutter times might be off. You might want to compare your new TLR with the Canon, of which you know it has an accurate shutter. Shoot identical scenes and bracket with the TLR.
Your test of the shutter speeds say nothing yet. Faster shutter speeds will be more prone to error...

I think given your logical and systematic approach to all the possible culprits, the above is most likely spot on. Old shutters are not necessarily prone to damage through abuse - as with many mechanical things a lack of use can be the worst enemy!
Having said that, I once developed several rolls of film at 15 deg C... nothing wrong with the thermometer, just a plain and simple brain-fart. Yep, all me! I was very "proud" of myself, needless to say. Also needless to say, the negs were, uhm, thin... I am not accusing you of this, merely mentioning it because... well, to err is human, and I find that photography tends to bring out a lot of my... shall we say... humanity

There was once a shutter speed test I saw that used an image on a web-site. For the life of me I can't recall the address or the principle on which it worked - but it was pretty simple and may save you a lot of headaches. Google it, or hopefully, someone less disorganized than myself will actually have it handy.

I hope you lick this problem - I know how you feel, its like picking up a puppy when shopping for one: you pretty much bought one when you let yourself do that, logic and method be damned!

Best of luck,

Peter.

David H. Bebbington · Jan 20, 2006

digiconvert said:
Any other ideas ? Currently the negs need about 2 seconds at f11 - 8 seconds at f 22 is not really where I want to be processing !
Thanks
CJB

You have provided a lot of data but not told us what developer you are using. Some developers (notoriously Ilford Ilfosol-S) are capable of dying in a part-empty bottle within days and would then give you the results you've got. You could try another roll of b+w with fresh dev or run off a test roll of color and send it to a lab - I suspect this would turn out OK.

PS: (Very) crude way of telling if b+w negs are correctly exposed and developed - the negs should show detail in the shadow areas you are interested in AND it should just be possible to read a newspaper through the highlights (densest parts of negs) when the negatives are lying on the paper in average room lighting.

digiconvert · Jan 20, 2006

David H. Bebbington said:
You have provided a lot of data but not told us what developer you are using. Some developers (notoriously Ilford Ilfosol-S) ....

I did develop with ilfosol-s , new bottle and as I said I did another film from a different camera in the same tank so I would expect the results to be the same. However I will use your technique for guagung the negative.-- Thanks for that .

Cheers CJB

digiconvert · Jan 20, 2006

Just had a thought after looking around the web. Could the problem be an old battery causing inconsistent shutter speed ? It is electronic after all, the red light comes on when I test but it could be on its last legs .

Sensible idea or not ?

Cheers CJB

titrisol · Jan 20, 2006

I think the new battery idea is sensible, change it and see what happens.

you can chek the speeds 1/60 and faster with your TV set, By measuring the amount of screen the picture rcords.
I think there are instructions fo this somewhere in the internet.

If you can get hold of a metronome and give it a 1s period, or a pendulum clock with about 1s period you can estimate the other speeds by measuring the arc of the "blurred" part.

In both cases be not afraid to overexpose, use wide open and illuminate the pendulum (the bronze is usually far broghter than wood) evenly.

Nick Zentena · Jan 20, 2006

If it's like the ETR I think a dead battery has the shutter firing at 1/500.

titrisol · Jan 20, 2006

BTW didi you donwload the manual?
It's free from Tamron/bronica here:
http://www.tamron.com/assets/pdfs/SQ-B.pdf

Nick is correct, if battery is low/dead the shutter fires at 1/500 regardless of the settings.

gnashings · Jan 20, 2006

digiconvert said:
I did develop with ilfosol-s , new bottle and as I said I did another film from a different camera in the same tank so I would expect the results to be the same. However I will use your technique for guagung the negative.-- Thanks for that .

Cheers CJB

DOH! Sorry, I missed the "same tank" part... which of course makes most of what I wrote about developing... well, you know...

P C Headland · Jan 21, 2006

Pop a new battery in just to be sure, and make sure all electrical contacts are clean (get some electrical contact cleaner). Visually check to make sure that the lens is opening consistently. Since this is a leaf shutter camera, maybe you can borrow a similar/additional lens for a side-by-side comparison.

Then get a roll or two of slide film - something quite picky like velvia. Shoot a consistent, evenly lit scene, and shoot something along the lines of -2.0, -1.5, -1, -0.5, 0, +0.5, +1, +1.5, +2 exposures. If you want to run a test on a couple of different scenes, just go with full stops(-2.0, -1.0, etc.) When you get the film back, it should be quite obvious if something is amiss.

The reason I'd go for testing with slide film is that with B+W there are so many variables when it comes to correct exposure. With slide, especially the likes of velvia, you don't have much leeway. When I get a camera, I always run a roll of slide film through first to check things out.

Good luck in sorting the problem out, and let us know what you find out.

Paul Sorensen · Jan 21, 2006

If the battery idea doesn't solve the problem, do you have access to other lenses? Don't forget that the shutter is in the lens and that you can check it quickly by shooting identical exposures with different lenses. Shoot a gray card or something similar with no detail so the different focal lengths don't distract you and compare the relative density.

Also, you can do a test roll with constant aperture and various shutter speeds. If you have an electrical problem that is causing the shutter to work only at 500 then all of your negs will be identical.

digiconvert · Jan 21, 2006

Paul Sorensen said:
If the battery idea doesn't solve the problem, do you have access to other lenses? Don't forget that the shutter is in the lens and that you can check it quickly by shooting identical exposures with different lenses....
Yes I understand about the leaf shutter but haven't gaot a spare lens.

Also, you can do a test roll with constant aperture and various shutter speeds. If you have an electrical problem that is causing the shutter to work only at 500 then all of your negs will be identical.
The problem is consistent i.e all are underexposed by about the same amount.If I can get the right 'correction' it's not going to be a problem

Bought a Euromaster II today , that's brokn as well (looks wonderful) perhaps the gods of camera have taken a dislike to me for using Photoshop ????

Claire Senft · Jan 21, 2006

I would think that simply taking the back off the camera and pointing it a well lit scene with the lens wide open and looking thru the shutter while tripping it at several diffent speeds will quickly tell you whether you have a shutter problem. 1/60 af a second should definitely be noticeably different than 1/250 or 1/15. If they are not different switch batteries and try again. If you still have problems return the camera for refund or repair.

Claire Senft · Jan 21, 2006

Sorry I was not thinking. If the back is not removable on the B, open the back and remove the insert in lieu of removing the back and then test the camera.

digiconvert · Jan 25, 2006

Thanks to all. I have done a lot of testing using your advice and have changed the battery and now feel that HP5 shoots at about ISO 250 with this camera/meter/developer combination so I can at least get consistent results (which is what matters).
Isn't this a wonderful,helpful and supportive place to be ?

I think I'm going mad !!

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