I offer to show results of my experiments with color developer dilution

Paul Verizzo · Jan 2, 2013

StoneNYC said:
Wait you are saying there are C-41 kits that let you prices over 200 rolls for $30-$40??? Am I reading that right?

I got that figure from http://www.uniquedirect.com/e/index...-unit-f2-for-color-negative-film-1173319.html

$30 per module, $23.50 each for two or more. Plus shipping, of course. Weight is given at ten pounds, so I would estimate the liquid weight as four pounds each bottle, i.e., two quarts. The modules are also on eBay for about $30 with shipping.

Paul Verizzo · Jan 2, 2013

MattKing said:
I should add that it is theoretically possible to reverse engineer the Flexicolor SM kits to permit more manual processing - but you would most likely need to cannibalize a relatively modern mini-lab for the various connectors and automatic dispensing machinery.

Why? It's just chemicals. The only thing (I think!) one needs to get hold of or figure out is the dilution ratio. And the only one that is super critical would be the developer.

wogster · Jan 2, 2013

StoneNYC said:
Well it's not that I WANT manual processing, I mean C-41 was designed not to have to be manually processed and made for machines... But I can't afford a whole process machine that's crazy, I don't know how much they would be for 120 film but I can't imagine it's in my price range...

~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

They are probably a lot cheaper then you might think, especially now that film processing isn't as popular as it was even a decade ago.... The problem might be getting the required power into your house, especially in North America where 2 phase is a lot more popular for residential use, then 3 phase which is more popular for commercial and industrial use.... Mind you, if you ring up your utility provider and they have the right lines in place, they will provide whatever you like, providing your willing to pay for it....

Paul Verizzo · Jan 2, 2013

Cost per roll, no 25 gallon purchase necessary.

I use a two reel plastic developing tank, I prefer it to my SS ones. With the reels in place, it takes 650 ml of water to cover them. As SS takes take far less liquid, any calculated costs would be that much less than my hog.

Using David's 1:15 ratio, that's 43.3 ml of stock C-41 developer to seed it with.

One liter of stock developer will give 23 loads, or 46 rolls of film.

Not including shipping, one could use the 500ml Rollei/Compard/Maco kit and it works out at $1.05 per roll.

A Unicolor 1 liter lit checks in at 41 cents, the two liter would be 36 cents.

Even the expensive ($40) Tetenal 1 liter is only 87 cents, the inexpensive-per-liter 5L kit works out to 33 cents.

Since it will cost $5 or more to either mail or drive film to a develop only facility, it's all good!

David Lyga · Jan 2, 2013

Paul, your milliliters are correct but let's say 1 + 14 (i.e., not '15') in order to avoid confusion. This (1 + 14) 'adds up' to the '15' working solution.

(1:15 is ambiguous both because of the colon and because of the '15'. 'What does it mean'? Does it mean 1 'to' 15? Some interprete that to mean '1 plus 15'. Some interprete it to mean '1' makes a total of '15'.)

Of course, Paul, we are assuming that brands other than Flexicolor will do what Flexicolor will do. Will that be a costly assumption? I think that it will work but I cannot guarantee that it will. - David Lyga

Paul Verizzo · Jan 2, 2013

Oops........

David Lyga said:
Paul, your milliliters are correct but let's say 1 + 14 (i.e., not '15') in order to avoid confusion. This (1 + 14) 'adds up' to the '15' working solution.

(1:15 is ambiguous both because of the colon and because of the '15'. 'What does it mean'? Does it mean 1 'to' 15? Some interprete that to mean '1 plus 15'. Some interprete it to mean '1' makes a total of '15'.)

Of course, Paul, we are assuming that brands other than Flexicolor will do what Flexicolor will do. Will that be a costly assumption? I think that it will work but I cannot guarantee that it will. - David Lyga

There's a reason I shyed from the math heavy occupations. So, add 7% to my figures.

I think most of us understand that what worked with Flexicolor may not with other brands. However, they all have to use CD-4, so at worst, the differences may just require a time/temp tweak. And for those of us who don't print but scan, even color shifts are of no concern.

wogster · Jan 2, 2013

Paul Verizzo said:
There's a reason I shyed from the math heavy occupations. So, add 7% to my figures.

I think most of us understand that what worked with Flexicolor may not with other brands. However, they all have to use CD-4, so at worst, the differences may just require a time/temp tweak. And for those of us who don't print but scan, even color shifts are of no concern.

It would depend on the whether the colour shift is linear or not, for example say at a density of .1 your shift is 4M, and at a density of .99 it's also 4M, the shift is linear, and does not matter. However suppose at a density of .1 your shift is 4M, and .2 is 3M,1Y, and .7 it's 5M,2Y and at .99 it's 7M,4Y, this isn't linear, because the lighter parts in a print will be more affected then dark areas, and not evenly affected, that would be a bear to correct digitally.

Terry Christian · Jan 2, 2013

Thanks so much for the breakdown of your process, David!

Some folks were asking about using Kodak Flexicolor chemicals. Here's my thread about my own adventures in doing so:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Since then I've bought the developer starter in the hopes that it'll help to even out the inconsistencies I had, but I haven't tried it as of yet; I probably won't be shooting/developing any color until spring.

David Lyga · Jan 3, 2013

Honestly, I do not think that you need the starter Terry. I think that it just slows down the development process so that labs, that re-use chemicals can have greater consistency at the beginning, before bromide enters the solution from film having been developed. Be forewarned, but try it if you wish. - David Lyga

Terry Christian · Jan 3, 2013

I'm inclined to agree, David. I was getting some strange and inconsistent color-shifting, and a commenter recommended the starter.

Keep in mind, though, that I was using very old chemical concentrates, so my first guess would be that my Part C concentrate is weak due to age. It's too early to tell currently, as I've only mixed up one 1L batch (the original, without starter). The non-shifted negs look perfect, though!

Paul Verizzo · Jan 3, 2013

Terry Christian said:
I'm inclined to agree, David. I was getting some strange and inconsistent color-shifting, and a commenter recommended the starter.

Keep in mind, though, that I was using very old chemical concentrates, so my first guess would be that my Part C concentrate is weak due to age. It's too early to tell currently, as I've only mixed up one 1L batch (the original, without starter). The non-shifted negs look perfect, though!

I'm inclined to think "misuse" of the chemicals, rather than age related matters. If there isn't a "Use by" date on the boxes, the concentrates are stable. And even if there was a date, you can be sure it's very, very conservative, even to the point of not at all. Does Rollei or Tetenal or (liquid) Unicolor put "Use by" dates on their packaging? Kodak, et. al., would definitely spend a goodly amount of research and money to prevent disaster.

That you left Starter out would fall into my hypothetical category of "misuse." W/o looking at the MSDS and knowing what chemicals are in it, I'm going to make a guess and say that it functions somewhat in the spirit of keeping a bit of old B&W developer in the next batch.

David Lyga · Jan 3, 2013

I'd like this 'starter' stuff further explored. My 'official' response at this point (and through discussions with lab owners) is that starter is merely a 'brake' on the (initial, pre-bromide infused) developer energy. Nothing more. Nothing to do with colors other than that brought about through extent of development (i.e., contrast).

If I am incorrect I want to know. Terry, the color shifting you were getting could have been the result of either too much development (contrasty, too MUCH hue differentiation) or too little development (drab, lifeless, too LITTLE hue differentiation). But I am certainly willing to learn more on this topic. - David Lyga

Paul Verizzo · Jan 3, 2013

Well, that was easy (re Flexicolor starter)

MSDS: https://www.freestylephoto.biz/pdf/msds/kodak/Flexicolor_Developer_Starter_1_Qt..pdf

Ingredients:

3. Composition/information on ingredients
Weight % Components - (CAS-No.)
10 - 15 Potassium carbonate (584-08-7)
1 - 5 Pentetic acid, pentasodium salt (140-01-2)
1 - 5 Sodium sulphite (7757-83-7)
1 - 5 Sodium bromide (7647-15-6)

pH: 9.5

At first investigative blush it would seem to me that w/o the Starter, one has a crippled Flexicolor that might display unwanted properties.

Terry Christian · Jan 3, 2013

That you left Starter out would fall into my hypothetical category of "misuse."

That's why I'm not jumping to any conclusions.

If there isn't a "Use by" date on the boxes, the concentrates are stable.... Does Rollei or Tetenal or (liquid) Unicolor put "Use by" dates on their packaging?

The way-old Kodak Flexicolor liquid concentrates I have (just bottles, no box), do not have expirations on any of them. The Rollei Digibase home kits I've used before don't, either. I've never used Tetenal, and the only Unicolor kits I've seen have been powder, with no expiration. I'll be posting a picture of the bottles in the other thread referenced above in anyone's curious.

Athiril · Jan 14, 2013

The starter should also contain the iodide.

stefan4u · Jan 14, 2013

it does, but far below notifiable amounts...

If you mix a C41 developer from a replenisher and a "Starter" solution, the replenisher itself will be free of iodide, all needed iodide (1.2mg/liter) comes from the starter.
So calculating it it down a whole liter of FLEXICOLOR Entwickler Starter CAT 1953009 contains only about 86mg of iodide. (1000/14)*1.2=85.7mg

This should be 0.0086 % in in weight...

(my german Flexicolor edition says 860ml of replenisher, 14 ml of starter and additional 126ml water give one liler working solution, these amounts may vary for other distributions...)

Regards Stefan

mtjade2007 · Jan 14, 2013

stefan4u said:
(my german Flexicolor edition says 860ml of replenisher, 14 ml of starter and additional 126ml water give one liler working solution, these amounts may vary for other distributions...)

Regards Stefan

This is exactly the reason a replenisher is not equal to a working solution. The dilution alone is significant. Without it the replenish will be too hot. I used a replenisher as a working developer before and it ruined my roll of negative. The image was too dense (over development) and the colors were poor.

stefan4u · Jan 14, 2013

Chapeau for your work, David! This has to be said!

Anyway,sometimes I have the impression that “this replenisher and starter” issue is somehow misunderstood and easily mixed up with other inconsistencies that like to happen in hobbyist cellars, at least in mine…

In commercial processing, a fresh working solution is only made once, if the machine is filled the first time (in general). From the moment a film is/was processed only a small amount of replenisher is added to the tank solution to maintain/control its chemical activity. Depending on the subsystem it can be something like 70ml, 45ml or 22ml for each Film 135-24. Because of pH drop during development and accumulation of restrainers as well consumption of developer and preservatives this replenishing solution is slightly different. The ph is more alkaline, sulfite, hydroxylamine sulfate and CD4 are about 15-20% increased, bromide level is only about 1/3 to half, iodide is absent at all, etc. The absolute values are depending on the subsystem (Brand, High rate, low rep. rate etc)

So the replenisher has different composition, is quite hot and needs the addition of the starter to be converted in proper tank solution. From then on only replenisher is needed in commercial processing. Tank solution is that what hobbyists need / label as developer.

Bottom line: If using a commercial developer replenisher that requires starter to get transformed in to seasoned tank solution, it will be better to use it in the right proportion, if the primary target is a negative in specs in a non replenished development cycle (Assuming agitation, times and temperatures are in specs too). For experimental / fun everything else can be done… I’m frugal my own way by home brewing that stuff…

Regards stefan

Paul Verizzo · Jan 15, 2013

Question for David

Poking around APUG further, I see older posts where you play with a 1+9 dilution. But here you are talking 1+14. Why the change? The cost, which I've gathered is a matter of pride with you, is virtually inconsequential. Ummmm.... 50 cents a roll vs. 30?}

I gotta tell you, friend, I don't get that a man lives in less than a garage space but buys chemistry in 25 gallon sizes. (Full disclosure: I lived in a 420 s.f. shack for six years. But I also had external storage!) But the bottom line is that I really, really respect and giggle at your iconoclastism!

Carrry on!

David Lyga · Jan 28, 2013

Sorry for the monumental delay, Paul...

Fact is, dear Paul Verizzo, I really am a fluke. Yes, I live in a 12 ft X 12 ft efficiency and have a 25 gallon size in here. It is only about one gallon of liquid, by the way! I mix as I need and I keep the conponents airtight in PET plastic with marbles (I guess that where my marbles went!)

At the beginning I was using 1 + 19 and that worked but gave a bit too low contrast to suit. Then I went through a period that punchy colors were 'best', thus the 1 + 9. Now, I have come down to reality and the 1 + 14 I find best.

Yes, Paul, I have external storage: two separate self-storage units.

Yes, these things really are true about me. Why be a phony? I am what I am, good and bad, and more than a bit crazy, I guess. But I do sleep well and have no real feelings of guilt with how I treat people. Sometimes that is worth more than money. Peace begins with the inner stuff. Thank you for your enquiry. - David Lyga

keyofnight · Jan 29, 2013

David Lyga said:
Yes, these things really are true about me. Why be a phony? I am what I am, good and bad, and more than a bit crazy, I guess. But I do sleep well and have no real feelings of guilt with how I treat people. Sometimes that is worth more than money. Peace begins with the inner stuff. Thank you for your enquiry.

Damn straight!

By the way: I'm so glad to finally see what your prints look like! They're great. Thanks for sharing your work with us.

David Lyga · Jan 29, 2013

In fairness, 'keyof night', it is easier for me to be open because I have no butts to kiss or anything to prove. - David lyga

I offer to show results of my experiments with color developer dilution

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