I need to clear up some things about fixing.

I've only been developing film for a few months now. So far so good, I've been getting printable negatives - but I'm not quite sure I know what I'm doing fixer-wise.

I'm using all black and white, mostly Fomapan but I have a roll of TMAX 100 to develop soon.

I have a few questions.

1. Exactly how long should I really fix my film? I've been doing 10 minutes. This seems to work fine for 100 speed Fomapan (I get perfectly clear in between the frames) but I did a 400 speed roll the other day and it came out rather grey-ish. Still printable but not ideal. I know I didn't fog it so it was definitely the fixer. I did another 100 speed roll today and did an extra minute or two on the fixer. Oh yea, it's definitely clear now

2. Can I really fix my film too long? What if I just left it in there for a whole half hour just to be sure (for example)?

3. Agitation. I obsess over agitation during development. But what about during fixing? I tend not to agitate quite as much, still frequently (about every 30 seconds) but not as much. Should I be agitating just as much as during development?

4. That roll of TMAX I'll be doing. Should I go overboard on the fixer with it? I've heard TMAX is difficult to fix properly.


Thanks!!

Two times in one day I get to refer to my article, who would have thought!
Use a clip test.
Here is an article I posted about how to do that. If you read the Discussion as well, you will see the additional refinement I use: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)
I use T-Max for the clip tests because it requires the most time in the fixer. I bulk load it in 35mm, so it is easy to cut off a few clips every once in a while.
I also use continuous agitation during the fixer stage, but if I didn't I would use Kodak standard agitation - moderately vigorous agitation for 5 seconds each 30 seconds.
Extreme over-fixing will damage film. Over-fixing in general means you have to wash longer, and makes a wash-aid like Hypo Clearing Agent more necessary.
You can and should re-use your film fixer, but use both the manufacturer's capacity recommendations and the results of your clip test to ensure that you don't over-use it.

keenmaster486 said:

1. Exactly how long should I really fix my film?

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The logical thing to do is to take a look at (... and take into account as a starting point) the Data Sheets, but if you're asking here perhaps is because you want a quick answer or different opinions. Mine is: I always do a double fixing with long fixings or with "hard" films! (total time/2: renewing the fixer the second time) How long in your case? YMMV

keenmaster486 said:

2. Can I really fix my film too long? What if I just left it in there for a whole half hour just to be sure (for example)?

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You can, but you shouldn't. To make a long story short you'll end up clearing up (bleaching) silver that you don't probably want to. Modern films are well preparared for that kind of "experimentations" but you shouldn't fix any film more than sixty percent of the estimated time (imho). So half an hour for that T-max is much, too much.

keenmaster486 said:

3. Agitation. I obsess over agitation during development. But what about during fixing? I tend not to agitate quite as much, still frequently (about every 30 seconds) but not as much. Should I be agitating just as much as during development?

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Again the logical thing is to take a look to the manufacturer's recommendations, but if you're asking is because you need a quick advice or different opinions. Mine is, I (usually) agitate fix. the same way I do with dev. As you already know if your agitation changes time also does, bear that in mind. YMMV.

keenmaster486 said:

4. That roll of TMAX I'll be doing. Should I go overboard on the fixer with it? I've heard TMAX is difficult to fix properly.

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No, you should do your own clip test for that (as Matt said above) in case you're not sure or for your own needs. You can always re-fix by inspection after the first fixing, that's always better than "no turning back".

Good luck!

edited: spell check

The fixer manufacturer and the film manufacturer publish detailed information for the use of their products. I can't think of a reason not to follow it, especially when starting out.

keenmaster486 said:

but I did a 400 speed roll the other day and it came out rather grey-ish. Still printable but not ideal. I know I didn't fog it so it was definitely the fixer

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Nope, it was most likely the film base, not anything related to your fixer. Films with higher sensitivities do have darker film bases to improve sharpness.

@MattKing: longer fix times get Thiosulfate attached to photographic paper, but this is not the case with film. Also: when Kodak F-6 fixer was formulated, it was formulated at pH 4.8 (higher than the pH of F-5) such that washing no longer required a wash aid. I would therefore conclude that only extreme overfixing (think an hour or more) can bleach film a bit, but that modest overfixation has no adverse effect whatsoever.

For fomapan 400 or 200, the only film I USE, Champion amfix or Tetenal rapid fixer or Ilford rapid fixer, dilute 1/4,fix for 3 minutes, constant agitation for the first minute, then leave, pour back into storage botttle use 600ml for 8 films either 120 or 35 mm, discard after 8 uses then mix fresh, this work for pretty much any film other than Tmax, which will require 6 minutes fixing, I have, over the last 55 or so years uded most b/w film on the ,market and the above has worked fine
Richard

Rudeofus said:

longer fix times get Thiosulfate attached to photographic paper, but this is not the case with film.

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I generally agree, but there still is a need to wash out the fixer and the products and byproducts of fixing, and it is only natural that extended fixing may result in a greater need for both extended washing and some sort of washaid.
Greg Davis' extensive sets of tests helped convince me of the value of a washaid when it comes to film: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Guys, thanks for all the good information! I think I have a better clue of what I'm doing now, I hope haha!

MattKing said:

I generally agree, but there still is a need to wash out the fixer and the products and byproducts of fixing, and it is only natural that extended fixing may result in a greater need for both extended washing and some sort of washaid.

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I don't see why this would be natural. Unlike with paper, there is nothing in film which would slowly build up Thiosulfate and thereby require longer washing. As I mentioned before, F-6 was formulated as hardening fixer at pH 4.8 in order to remove the necessity for HCA. Today we have rapid fixers at pH 5.5 or higher, no need for hardener, and act like washing suddenly turned into rocket science.[/QUOTE]

MattKing said:

Greg Davis' extensive sets of tests helped convince me of the value of a washaid when it comes to film: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

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Great resource, but mostly proves my point: if you use non-hardening fixer, there is no need for HCA and minimal need for washing. Ilford's procedure is ridiculously fast and efficient. If you insist on using a hardening fixer, then yes, you are going to be on your own, and even in this case a half hour wash with water requirement of about 6 times the tank volume the HT-2 test reports archival washing.

Rudeofus said:

I would therefore conclude that only extreme overfixing (think an hour or more) can bleach film a bit, but that modest overfixation has no adverse effect whatsoever.

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It has, it clearly depends on the fixer (composition & dilution) as well as the type of film used (emultion & base), but it has! There is a difference between seeing what the extreme overfixing has done, and being able to measure a modest one, but the problem is there in both cases. If you've reached/bleached "a bit", then your image has just began to be destroyed. The damage is done, and not only by the fixer ...

MattKing said:

and it is only natural that extended fixing may result in a greater need for both extended washing and some sort of washaid(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

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I do not think so. It is a question of an efficient rinsing process, not such a natural equation as you've mentioned. Chemical agents apart, extended fixing and as a result extended washing, means "lots of time for the film to be in the water" (along with the rest of the submerged process) for the emulsion stability as well.

Rudeofus said:

I don't see why this would be natural. Unlike with paper, there is nothing in film which would slowly build up Thiosulfate and thereby require longer washing.

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Is there no Thiosulfate introduced to the gelatin?

Rudeofus said:

Great resource, but mostly proves my point: if you use non-hardening fixer, there is no need for HCA and minimal need for washing.

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It is interesting that we come to different conclusions based on similar data. I see his data as indicating that if you use HCA, you are much more likely to be assured of sufficient removal of Thiosulfate and fixing byproducts then if you omit that step.

If the thread, noted above, with seven looong pages has proved nothing new (it did not tell us anything we did not already know) with the implicit invitation to each to "do what he or she wants the way he or she likes most" and when it comes to methodology, there are no "fixed" rules ... It seems we are still discussing what manufacturers have proven and recommended for years ... Since the OP here has a better clue now about fixing. Time for a wetting agent and dry. I stop here with this.

Happy hunting gentlemen!

MattKing said:

Is there no Thiosulfate introduced to the gelatin?

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Thiosulfate introduced into the gelatin would likely harden it, just like Sulfate does. There are no credible reports about this, though, so it likely doesn't happen that way. Note, that Ron Mowrey was quite cautious with Thiocyanate in fixer, because Thiocyanate weakens gelatin and could cause damage unhardened emulsions. If Thiosulfate would have any hardening effect, this would be a non-issue.

MattKing said:

It is interesting that we come to different conclusions based on similar data. I see his data as indicating that if you use HCA, you are much more likely to be assured of sufficient removal of Thiosulfate and fixing byproducts then if you omit that step.

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There is not a single sample in this data set, where a fixer without hardener would not wash out with the bare minimum wash time as specified. I don't think you can beat the speed and efficiency of Ilford's wash cycle with HCA.

LAG said:

It has, it clearly depends on the fixer (composition & dilution) as well as the type of film used (emultion & base), but it has!

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Acidic fixers will slowly bleach, but nearly neutral ones don't.

OP was concerned whether 10 minutes of treatment in rapid fixer can create problems, and I think it is safe to say: 10 minutes in a modern rapid fixer cause no adverse effects on film or paper.

MattKing said:

Is there no Thiosulfate introduced to the gelatin?

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There might be some, but it washes out quite quickly. RC papers don't need excessive washing either and it's the FB paper that is hard to wash properly.

MattKing said:

It is interesting that we come to different conclusions based on similar data. I see his data as indicating that if you use HCA, you are much more likely to be assured of sufficient removal of Thiosulfate and fixing byproducts then if you omit that step.

Click to expand...

I agree with Rudeofus about this. The critical part is using non-hardening fixer. I've used F24, an acidic, non-hardening, sodium thiosulfate based fixer and even that doesn't need excessive wash. Some films spent 10' in that, in order to fix properly, think TMax and Tri-X. Even so, 5 water changes left for 2:30 each, without any HCA gave very clean film, the HT2 test didn't produce any stain. I could probably get away with even less water changes and/or waiting time for each change, but I haven't tested this.

keenmaster486 said:

I've only been developing film for a few months now. So far so good, I've been getting printable negatives - but I'm not quite sure I know what I'm doing fixer-wise.

I'm using all black and white, mostly Fomapan but I have a roll of TMAX 100 to develop soon.

I have a few questions.

1. Exactly how long should I really fix my film? I've been doing 10 minutes. This seems to work fine for 100 speed Fomapan (I get perfectly clear in between the frames) but I did a 400 speed roll the other day and it came out rather grey-ish. Still printable but not ideal. I know I didn't fog it so it was definitely the fixer. I did another 100 speed roll today and did an extra minute or two on the fixer. Oh yea, it's definitely clear now

2. Can I really fix my film too long? What if I just left it in there for a whole half hour just to be sure (for example)?

3. Agitation. I obsess over agitation during development. But what about during fixing? I tend not to agitate quite as much, still frequently (about every 30 seconds) but not as much. Should I be agitating just as much as during development?

4. That roll of TMAX I'll be doing. Should I go overboard on the fixer with it? I've heard TMAX is difficult to fix properly.


Thanks!!

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The general rule for fixing is:fix strong and short not weak and long. I assume you are using rapid fixer at film strength. If you don't, you should. I'm also a strong advocat oftwo-bath fixing,ehere you fix twice in film-strength fixer and use the second bath as the first bath forthe next roll of film! This way thefilm is always fixed in fresh strong fixer at leat once. Diluting fixer to paper strength and trying to compensate by fixing longer is false economy and will ruin your film eventually. Also fixing 20 rolls in the same fixer will exhaust the fixer quickly and wil leave your film unprotected. This is especially true for Tmax films. They really benefit from two-bath fixing.

Rudeofus said:

Acidic fixers will slowly bleach, but nearly neutral ones don't.

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Do!, like I said above, it depends on chemical dilution as well & film (test it for yourself, you do not have to trust me)

Rudeofus said:

OP was concerned whether 10 minutes of treatment in rapid fixer can create problems, and I think it is safe to say: 10 minutes in a modern rapid fixer cause no adverse effects on film or paper.

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Re-read OP question number 2 carefully, please!

All the best! Bye!