I need advice.how to prepare C41 chemistry powder

mohmad khatab · Aug 6, 2021

Hello my good colleagues.
- I know perfectly well that chemistry is not the best option, but it has become a tangible reality, whether we like it or not.
- Some of my fellow Egyptian photographers who live in distant governorates (maybe 1000 km) in the far south, they asked me to prepare the chemistry in the form of a powder, and the internal shipping in Egypt is actually very bad and mostly does not accept shipping liquids and if he agrees to ship them The probability that the parcel will arrive intact is a low probability.

I had a discussion with my Austrian teacher, Engineer/Rudi.
And I reached some points, and there are some points that need clarification and search for solutions.
And the most important of those points are.
- How to solve the problem of adding potassium iodoid percentage in dry form.?
- I think that the manufacturers of this powder chemistry rely on the (ECN2) formula, but they do not declare that, and the evidence is that they often advise that the photographer use a temperature of more than 38, I say mostly, but not all of them., And of course the formula ( ECN2 does not contain potassium iodide.
- There is also another evidence to support this subtraction, which is that the life span of this powder chemistry is only two weeks and not six weeks, as is the case with liquid chemistry.

In general, I opened this publication and I hope that you will not spare me by expressing your valuable views on this subject,
thank you in advance
Please accept my highest respect to you.

halfaman · Aug 6, 2021

What you see in the bag is the MSDS declaration. It is not a complete disclosure of ingredients but only the ones with safety or enviromental concerns. It is very probable that iodine is added in such a low quantity that it is not necesary to declare it.

Alan Johnson · Aug 6, 2021

The problem of supplying a very small quantity of potassium iodide is also found with the Photoformulary FX-1 kit.
They supply the potassium iodide as 10ml of solution in a vial:
https://stores.photoformulary.com/content/01-0080.pdf
I am afraid this only shifts the problem to finding a supplier of vials.
I don't know much about color developers, would it make a really significant difference to just leave the iodide out?
Here is a formula of good repute:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/color-negative-developer-near-to-c41.42731/#post-612215
Here is a comment on the effect of potassium iodide:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/diy-c-41-potassium-iodide.141178/#post-1844382

MattKing · Aug 6, 2021

thread moved to the Colour: Film Paper and Chemistry sub-forum

mohmad khatab · Aug 7, 2021

halfaman said:
What you see in the bag is the MSDS declaration. It is not a complete disclosure of ingredients but only the ones with safety or enviromental concerns. It is very probable that iodine is added in such a low quantity that it is not necesary to declare it.

This is my question as well.
If we assume that this recipe contains a small percentage of iodoid, if we assume that it is, for example, 0.002 grams,,
The question is: How can this very small amount be obtained, as there is no scale that can obtain this percentage. Therefore, it must be done through a liquid solution,,
The second question: How is that liquid solution dried?

I am not looking for the formula for that company.
I can use any other recipe.
But I just wanted to consult in order to find out how to add a very small percentage of potassium iodide.
And there is another suggestion.
This proposal is divided into two parts.
The first prong: Maybe that company is using a formula without potassium iodide, like the one below.
Zone V - C-41 developer.
Water .......................................800 mL
Potassium Carbonate............. 32 g
Sodium Sulfite ......................... 3.5 g
Potassium Bromide ................. 1.5 g
Hydroxylamine Sulfate ............. 2 g
CD-4 ........................................... 5g
Potassium Hydroxide ............... 0.5 g
The second prong is that this company uses the ECN2 formula

mohmad khatab · Aug 7, 2021

Alan Johnson said:
The problem of supplying a very small quantity of potassium iodide is also found with the Photoformulary FX-1 kit.
They supply the potassium iodide as 10ml of solution in a vial:
https://stores.photoformulary.com/content/01-0080.pdf
I am afraid this only shifts the problem to finding a supplier of vials.
I don't know much about color developers, would it make a really significant difference to just leave the iodide out?
Here is a formula of good repute:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/color-negative-developer-near-to-c41.42731/#post-612215
Here is a comment on the effect of potassium iodide:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/diy-c-41-potassium-iodide.141178/#post-1844382

God bless you, thank you for your valuable sharing.
I wasn't looking for the formula,
I wanted to find a way to dehydrate a potassium iodide solution in order to add it to the powdered recipe.

mohmad khatab · Aug 7, 2021

MattKing said:
thread moved to the Colour: Film Paper and Chemistry sub-forum

Sir, I apologize, I may not have posted the topic in the place designated for it. Please accept my apology. Thank you.

MattKing · Aug 7, 2021

mohmad khatab said:
Sir, I apologize, I may not have posted the topic in the place designated for it. Please accept my apology. Thank you.

No apology necessary. You are welcome.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Aug 7, 2021

mohmad khatab said:
If we assume that this recipe contains a small percentage of iodoid, if we assume that it is, for example, 0.002 grams,,
The question is: How can this very small amount be obtained, as there is no scale that can obtain this percentage. Therefore, it must be done through a liquid solution,,
The second question: How is that liquid solution dried?
...
I wanted to find a way to dehydrate a potassium iodide solution in order to add it to the powdered recipe.

May be you can send 1g of Potassium Iodide in a small cover? And ask the user to dissolve it separately in 1l of water and use only 2ml of it?

mohmad khatab · Aug 7, 2021

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
May be you can send 1g of Potassium Iodide in a small cover? And ask the user to dissolve it separately in 1l of water and use only 2ml of it?

I want to ask you this question.
You,, consider yourself a customer.. What would your situation be if you bought a photographic chemistry product and was surprised by the presence of one gram and the seller asked you to dissolve it in 100 ml of water,, then you bring a syringe and pick up 0.1 ml.
What would your position be at that time?
Please describe your inner feelings for me accurately.?
Assuming that you will have to do this in order to save what can be saved (because you actually bought and paid the money and it's over)... But tell me honestly, would you be excited to buy this product again in the future?
Would you recommend to any of your friends to buy this product?

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Aug 7, 2021

mohmad khatab said:
I want to ask you this question.
You,, consider yourself a customer.. What would your situation be if you bought a photographic chemistry product and was surprised by the presence of one gram and the seller asked you to dissolve it in 100 ml of water,, then you bring a syringe and pick up 0.1 ml.
What would your position be at that time?
Please describe your inner feelings for me accurately.?
Assuming that you will have to do this in order to save what can be saved (because you actually bought and paid the money and it's over)... But tell me honestly, would you be excited to buy this product again in the future?
Would you recommend to any of your friends to buy this product?

I'll follow exactly the instructions given to me by the manufacturer. And the solution I gave you is exactly what reputed manufacturers like Formulary do with some of their developers and obviously their customers have no problem with it. See this for instance:
https://stores.photoformulary.com/content/01-0200.pdf

mohmad khatab · Aug 8, 2021

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
I'll follow exactly the instructions given to me by the manufacturer. And the solution I gave you is exactly what reputed manufacturers like Formulary do with some of their developers and obviously their customers have no problem with it. See this for instance:
https://stores.photoformulary.com/content/01-0200.pdf

Brother, you are a perfect customer.
Wish all customers were like you.

koraks · Aug 8, 2021

Alan Johnson said:
I don't know much about color developers, would it make a really significant difference to just leave the iodide out?

I tested the various DIY C41 developers that stefan4u posted on this forum (the ones you linked to in your post). I specifically experimented with including the potassium iodide and leaving it out. I did not observe any ill effects from leaving it out, but I did notice that all of stefan4u's formulas gave results that were different in terms of color balance from factory-made Fuji C41 developer. The results were usable, but not optimal. When it comes to DIY-ing C41 chemistry, the risk is very big that the results won't be up to official standards and in that scenario, I guess that it doens't matter much anymore if the iodide is added or not.

@mohmad khatab I think your best option is to mix the dry components of your C41 developer in a relatively large quantity so you can accurately measure the iodide. Ensure proper mixing; you will likely need an industrial mixer for this that guarantees a homogeneous mix. Package the chemistry under a controlled environment particularly ensuring that any air that is sealed into the containers has no humidity, or (better) vacuum seal the chemistry in a suitable polymer bag. You will then have to make sure the developer is sold within a fairly short timeframe to limit the degradation that will likely result from the activator being packaged along with the developing agent. Alternatively, you could split the developer into two parts, one with the developing agent and another package with the other parts.

An alternative route that may be easier has already been suggested to you: include the iodide separately as a solution in a vial. Since this vial only needs to be quite small and can be packaged securely with ease, I don't see any major drawbacks to this approach.

mohmad khatab · Aug 8, 2021

koraks said:
I tested the various DIY C41 developers that stefan4u posted on this forum (the ones you linked to in your post). I specifically experimented with including the potassium iodide and leaving it out. I did not observe any ill effects from leaving it out, but I did notice that all of stefan4u's formulas gave results that were different in terms of color balance from factory-made Fuji C41 developer. The results were usable, but not optimal. When it comes to DIY-ing C41 chemistry, the risk is very big that the results won't be up to official standards and in that scenario, I guess that it doens't matter much anymore if the iodide is added or not.

@mohmad khatab I think your best option is to mix the dry components of your C41 developer in a relatively large quantity so you can accurately measure the iodide. Ensure proper mixing; you will likely need an industrial mixer for this that guarantees a homogeneous mix. Package the chemistry under a controlled environment particularly ensuring that any air that is sealed into the containers has no humidity, or (better) vacuum seal the chemistry in a suitable polymer bag. You will then have to make sure the developer is sold within a fairly short timeframe to limit the degradation that will likely result from the activator being packaged along with the developing agent. Alternatively, you could split the developer into two parts, one with the developing agent and another package with the other parts.

An alternative route that may be easier has already been suggested to you: include the iodide separately as a solution in a vial. Since this vial only needs to be quite small and can be packaged securely with ease, I don't see any major drawbacks to this approach.

Hello dear brother, God bless you..
You really understood what I wanted.
Yes, my dear brother, I thank you very much.
- I think that if you compare the original Fuji chemistry with the chemistry of Cinesteel or Utecolor, you will undoubtedly find the advantage in favor of the standard Fuji chemistry.
- In fact, I published an old formula formulated by an old-generation chemist called Mr. Zone V. It is a popular and hobbyist formula that the man did not even bother asking the amateurs to use distilled water and did not even ask to add two grams (calgon) for Purify the water, and did not add potassium iodide. .
- From my point of view, this is what is happening, and the proof of this is true, that all the respectable (reputable) photographic chemistry companies did not produce powder chemistry at all, for example (according to my information) Tetanal did not produce powder chemistry and so Kodak and Fuji did not produce the powder chemistry, because they did not want to find a way out for the issue of adding potassium iodide in such a small percentage and at the same time that it was dry, and of course it is impossible for those old companies to lie and use a formula other than its official fashion.
- (In all humility) From my personal point of view, Mr. Zone V's formula is worth the experience, since it does not contain potassium iodide, even if its results do not fully comply with the standards of the original formula (C41), it is fine, I don't think it is It would be a major crime against analog photography.
- In my opinion, facilitating the task of amateur photographers in obtaining photographic chemistry and developing their films with their own hands is a very important goal, even if the results are not ideal.
Well, I'm going to run experiments with that formula.
I hope that you will show some of the results of the tests that you have taken in this context, I will be very thankful to you.
NB :
Let me ask about this code you wrote next to C41 - DIY-ing - I don't understand what that symbol means

koraks · Aug 8, 2021

mohmad khatab said:
Let me ask about this code you wrote next to C41 - DIY-ing - I don't understand what that symbol means

My apologies for the confusion, I meant "do-it-yourself C41 developer" by that phrase. Or "home-made C41 developer" if you will.

I'm sorry, but I won't be able to post the results of the tests of the formulas I linked to, as I did not keep them. But to summarize the findings, my experience was that there were three main differences between Fuji chemistry and the home-made formulas I tried;
1. A difference in color balance, which means I needed different filtration settings for yellow and magenta when printing the negatives onto RA4 paper.
2. A lack of saturation in red in the home-made chemistry.
3. Problems with purity of the colors and also signs of crossover.
Findings #2 and #3 were deal-breakers for me; I did not proceed when I could not find a clear path towards a solution for these.

Overall the results might have been acceptable for other people. In fact, I lived with the imperfections for a year or so before I decided there was, for me at least, not enough benefit in making the chemistry myself. Of course, I had/have easy access to Fuji chemistry. I can imagine that in your case, it actually is a valid option to go with the kind of formulas we have been discussing. I agree with you that it would be good to give people in your country access to color chemistry, even if the solution is not perfect. It's still better than nothing.

bernard_L · Aug 8, 2021

@ mohmad khatab
Do I understand correctly that you would like to send to Egyptian fellow photographers some Cinestill C-41 kit(s) in powder form, but you are worried because you thing the Potassium Iodide is missing in that powder kit.

Do you have evidence that the Cinestill kit does not work properly?
As pointed out by halfaman in post #2 above, the KI being absent from the MSDS does not mean it is absent from the developer.

mohmad khatab · Aug 8, 2021

koraks said:
My apologies for the confusion, I meant "do-it-yourself C41 developer" by that phrase. Or "home-made C41 developer" if you will.

I'm sorry, but I won't be able to post the results of the tests of the formulas I linked to, as I did not keep them. But to summarize the findings, my experience was that there were three main differences between Fuji chemistry and the home-made formulas I tried;
1. A difference in color balance, which means I needed different filtration settings for yellow and magenta when printing the negatives onto RA4 paper.
2. A lack of saturation in red in the home-made chemistry.
3. Problems with purity of the colors and also signs of crossover.
Findings #2 and #3 were deal-breakers for me; I did not proceed when I could not find a clear path towards a solution for these.

Overall the results might have been acceptable for other people. In fact, I lived with the imperfections for a year or so before I decided there was, for me at least, not enough benefit in making the chemistry myself. Of course, I had/have easy access to Fuji chemistry. I can imagine that in your case, it actually is a valid option to go with the kind of formulas we have been discussing. I agree with you that it would be good to give people in your country access to color chemistry, even if the solution is not perfect. It's still better than nothing.

I am very sorry that you got rid of the test results, I wish you had not done that.

mohmad khatab · Aug 8, 2021

bernard_L said:
@ mohmad khatab
Do I understand correctly that you would like to send to Egyptian fellow photographers some Cinestill C-41 kit(s) in powder form, but you are worried because you thing the Potassium Iodide is missing in that powder kit.

Do you have evidence that the Cinestill kit does not work properly?

As pointed out by halfaman in post #2 above, the KI being absent from the MSDS does not mean it is absent from the developer.

Hello my dear brother .
Yes, you got everything almost right.
But with regard to the potassium iodide element. I did not say that it is not present in CineSteel powder.
But I wanted to inquire about the method they used to add that ingredient in such a small amount.
It is assumed that any formula needs at least 1 MG at least, and this requires that a dilute solution be made of one gram of potassium iodoid + 99 ml of water, then we take from that last solution 10 ml + 90 ml of water, and then take one ml And we add them to the developer.
Well, after all, we can't get that percentage in powder form.
- And the question was, How can we dry this quantity of potassium iodide solution?
- I didn't accuse Cine Steel's chemistry of not being good.
But at the same time, there are some people who said that the difference between it and the chemistry of Kodak and Fuji is a noticeable difference (in favor of Fuji and Kodak of course).
- There is no evidence that sinesteel formula contains potassium iodide and there is no evidence that it does not contain potassium iodide. But it is just a guess, and I provided some evidence that might support that.
Powder chemistry is an important economic market, and it is unreasonable to leave this sophistication to emerging companies in order to enjoy it alone without competing with them in it, unless they have scientific and perhaps ethical reasons that prevent them from entering this growing market.
- And if you try to think a little about those scientific or ethical reasons that might have been the reason behind the failure of Titanal, Fuji, Kodak to break into this market, we might think about the formula.. This confirms that the ideological obstacle will remain.
- Morally, it is impossible for Titan, Fuji, Kodak to manufacture chemistry using a formula they do not own. And who is the owner of that formula, do you know?
I doubt, I think, and I'm almost sure it's Mr. Zone V's formula - which is the formula I gave in my first post, and it's the only formula that doesn't include potassium iodide. This is a matter that is consistent with logic, and is consistent with the position we are dealing with.
- From a scientific point of view, I do not claim to be an expert at all, but what I am sure of, is that the three major companies have very accurate scientific standards that they work according to and they cannot allow any juxtaposition in any scale and
Certainly and without any doubt at all, there is no way that this powdered chemistry formula would meet the scientific standards of formula (C41), because if it gave the standard results, why did Titanal, Fuji, Kodak leave this fertile market and refrain from offering powder chemistry?
?

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Aug 8, 2021

mohmad khatab said:
- From my point of view, this is what is happening, and the proof of this is true, that all the respectable (reputable) photographic chemistry companies did not produce powder chemistry at all, for example (according to my information) Tetanal did not produce powder chemistry

Tetenal did produce powder based C41 Press Kit.

koraks · Aug 9, 2021

mohmad khatab said:
why did Titanal, Fuji, Kodak leave this fertile market

It wasn't a fertile market. It was a small niche and all companies you mention have been struggling with the dramatic decrease in demand for film products 20 years ago, which led to r&d being ceased and products eliminated.

mohmad khatab · Aug 9, 2021

koraks said:
It wasn't a fertile market. It was a small niche and all companies you mention have been struggling with the dramatic decrease in demand for film products 20 years ago, which led to r&d being ceased and products eliminated.

And what about now that the water has returned to its normal course? And the demand for photographic chemistry is steadily increasing?

Titnal Company has produced some new products, such as the box that contains enough chemistry to develop one roll.

mohmad khatab · Aug 9, 2021

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
Tetenal did produce powder based C41 Press Kit.

I have never heard of this product produced by Titanal, can you send me evidence from the official site of Titanal that this item is now available for sale to the public?

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Aug 9, 2021

mohmad khatab said:
I have never heard of this product produced by Titanal, can you send me evidence from the official site of Titanal that this item is now available for sale to the public?

Google search is your best friend.

koraks · Aug 10, 2021

mohmad khatab said:
And what about now that the water has returned to its normal course? And the demand for photographic chemistry is steadily increasing?

It's still a marginal market that simply cannot bear the weight of additional r&d. If you believe that the market is anywhere near where it was 20 years ago, you're very much mistaken. It's maybe 1% of that.

mohmad khatab · Aug 10, 2021

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
Google search is your best friend.

Mr. Google denied knowledge of this product.

I need advice.how to prepare C41 chemistry powder

mohmad khatab

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